Technical Descending

[landel]

Said I’d strike while the iron is hot Hoping to have another crack at the HT550 next year. I completed it in 2018 in 6.5 days on a hardtail bike (no dropper seatpost) and I’d like to go a bit faster next time. My stopped time was excessive which is an easy place to start but I also hiked down most of the techy descents which is a bit demoralising after all the hard work climbing. Coming from a mostly road background I’d like to improve my descending skills. So what’s the best way to learn, how did you learn…videos, online courses, coaching etc?

Also, I’m not looking for an excuse to buy yet another bike but if a full suspension bike would help then I’d consider it. Thanks.

[whitestone]

Looking after yourself and limiting stopped time will have more of an impact on your overall time than worrying about riding everything.

In 2017 Neil Beltchenko posted 3d 11hr or so. That's 83hrs of which he was stopped for just ten, i.e. 72-73hrs on the move. I posted 5d 2hr so that's 122hrs. However... my stopped time was 44hrs! So my moving time was around 10% slower than the fastest time. I walked most of the lower half of the Torridon descent and much of the Kinlochleven and Devil's staircase (in the case of the latter two I'd been on the go for over 24hr when I got there)

Now there's no way I could have ridden the route with just ten hours stopped time so 88hrs or 3d 16hr is just fantasy. BUT, I could have done a lot better.

Another aspect that can get overlooked is timing when you get to provision points. I was keen to better that time in 2018 and after looking at various strategies I had a bit of a light bulb moment when realised that I just needed to get to Oykel Bridge on the return about 2hrs quicker. In 2017 I got there at about 1930. Now the Tesco supermarket in Ullapool shuts at 2200. There was no way I was going to make Ullapool by 2130 (the current route is a bit quicker) to give me time to restock before heading into Fisherfield so I ended up stopping at the hotel (for nine hours!). It took nearly four hours to get to Ullapool the following morning so was a good call. However if I'd got there at 1730 I'd have made it to Tescos in time and would have got to Dundonnel or even into Fisherfield that night. That's over 12hrs quicker than I actually got there, not a bad trade That 2hrs is over a distance of 500km or more, not exactly a big increase percentage wise.

[Lazarus]

So what’s the best way to learn, how did you learn

I did it the old fashioned way of riding stuff till i found my limit via a horrible bone breaking crash .
Loaded bike and tired and alone I am always pretty conservative as an injury is way worse than some lost time.

What to do ....
Skills course if you want one
Ride stuff with mates to get advice
Practice practice and practice
A full susser will make the down easier but also likely to be slightly less pedaly/ efficient.

[Dyffers]

I thought I'd post a reply as I am a roadie by nature but decided in about 2010 I fancied this mountain biking thing. I went all trails and drops for a few years, entirely on hardtails, never owned a full suss.

After about two or three years of just riding stuff until I got better I was a reasonably confident if wheels-mostly-on-the-ground rider. I could tackle tech stuff without serious jumps up to the point it required Danny Macaskil trials biking skills that I just don't have the balance for. For a while I also quite enjoyed the group of mates "sessioning" thing as I'd always been a miserable roadie loner.

So I just rode a lot and got better, but probably not good enough to do Torridon (I've ridden past it on the road but don't know the trail) on an XC or rigid bike that would be more efficient for 95% of the event. So I decided I'd rather walk a few things and have a bike that was overall more efficient.

I gradually came round to the idea that no matter how good I might get, I would always walk down things that others with more natural skills would ride/risk. I remember on maybe the BB200 2015 Karl riding past about three of us walking down something mega steep like it was no harder for him than a forestry track! I don't think he finished in a much different time to me though...

What I did do is start some trail running, to get faster/more comfortable / more efficient on the hike-a-bike sections.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I was a coach for 10 years and donning my coach hat, I'd say some key points are thus:

1 / Learn to look further ahead. Doing so will reduce your perception of speed, give you more time to look for a better line and braking areas.

2 / Stand up and centre your weight on the pedals, aim to keep them level and reduce how hard you grip the bars. Consider that your weight can have a massive impact on how the bike behaves but focusing on your position / stance will allow the bike to pivot beneath you ... imagine the bike sitting on flat ground, your weight is directly above the BB. Now point the bike downhill. Because you're allowing the bike to pivot beneath you, you will automatically move rewards in relation to it but your weight will remain focused down through the BB. When this happens, the bike is at its most stable with weight on both tyres which will helps grip and thus braking. NEVER sit down on technical descents.

2a/ As a side not for the above - hanging your arse off the back is generally a bad thing and something we tend to do through fear and self-preservation. Your brain knows that whatever happens, it must protect your head, so moving off the back is your brain trying to move your head further away from what it sees as the danger. Throwing all that weight backwards places a lot of stress on your legs / arms. It pretty much locks you into position and prevents the 'pivoting' mentioned above from happening ... in short, you become a heavy dead-weight which will get thrown about by the terrain thus making the bike much more unstable.

3/ Learn to brake properly - that means 'like you mean it' in the appropriate / safest places rather than continually

[Lazarus]

Brake or steer never both is good advice * and it will also swallow much of your suspension

* bike wants to go in a straight line when front braking so brake hard and release ( most of us end up dragging( the rear generally) at some point even though we should not )

Dont kook at the thing you want to avoid .

More speed generally helps. Think going over a cattle grid quickly or slowly , but there is a limit to its usefulness.

[fatbikephil]

Go to the Lake District, swear your way up some horrendous bridleway pass, be so enraged that the descent is a boulder strewn impossible goat path that you try to ride it anyway. Being 18 helps.
Plus riding 29+ (or a full fat)

Contrary to Stu's advice I would say that sitting on the rear wheel is a way of dealing with the steep stuff.

Work up to it - find a local trail with steep and rocky (or rooty / tussocky)) stuff. Ride it, then build up to longer / steeper stuff. etc.

Re the HT stuff - it's more a case of enjoying it rather than worrying about timings.

[Wotsits]

If you can, get a copy of Mastering Mountain Bike Skills by Brian Lopes & read at least the first couple of chapters, it'll help to give you the basics..
There's a couple available on World of Books, & i'm pretty sure there maybe some pdf copies floating about the interweb..
https://www.wob.com/en-gb/category/all? ... s,%20lopes

Then, imho, the best thing you can do is to try & ride with people who are good technical riders, it's amazing how much you'll pick-up just watching how they ride stuff, then having a go yourself.
Once you've got a bit more confidence, just keep practicing!
A dropper really will help on the proper steep stuff.

[redefined_cycles]

Talking about droppers. I really don't get how so many people still ride without em. Way back when - not that I'm a good techy descender but I can get by as long as not in The Lakes on Sticks Pass - before droppers I'd always manually drop the post and back up when any nasty/steep descent had finished.

Still don't get how (yes, Karl and the likes) can ride world Cup type downhills without a dropper and without manually dropping the saddle!! Hopefully Alan will do a full write up of his reasons for going without dropper and other stuff, so I can get my head round it.

On the topic of how/what etc. Only piece of advice I could give is that try it and see what you can ride. Ride more and maybe a few more graded trail centres. Also, and what helped me the most, try not to overthink it and if you're not fully committed or are hesitant then it's probably not the write time to try (whatever techy descent is on the menu at that split moment).

I'm with Stu (not that I have half as much experience of actually riding hard-core trails as most people here as I usually walk em) about the weight. If you hang your bum too far back, the front wheel is gonna be unweighted and tend to wash out.

The bit that Jon/Lazarus said is just so so important. Never brake around a bend. Also, Most of the time the best path over a section is just trying to go straight over whatever big rock is int the way. Going around - unless you have Danny Mac type precision/reflexes - will just end up in tears.

Above all, don't take undue risks and it's refreshing to hear how many people actually walked/walk much of the tech descents on the HT550. (In other news) I'm borderline terrified of riding on the sides of mountains due to the vertigo from height-fears!!

Well done on the HT550 Landel especially as a Raodie background. That really is phenomenal and gives me hope that one day I might be strong/fit/brave enough to try/enter.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Contrary to Stu's advice I would say that sitting on the rear wheel is a way of dealing with the steep stuff.

The thing you need to remember Phil is that a weight shift still occurs. However, it's controlled by the bike reacting to the terrain. That has the benefit of it been dynamic which has a bigger effect than the slow one we generally tend to instigate.

[Lazarus]

On super steep ( Skiddaw scree descent is about 25 %*) what sre you advising here stu ?
Sometimes its so steep i cannot see any other option
I also dont see how the bike can control my weight shift - what donyou mean here ?

[atk]

Do the same principles apply regardless of terrain? I'm a rear-brake dragging nervous wreck when it comes to anything vaguely long or steep, regardless of terrain. I sometimes wonder why I even ride bikes beyond commuting

[Bearbonesnorm]

On super steep ( Skiddaw scree descent is about 25 %*) what sre you advising here stu ?
Sometimes its so steep i cannot see any other option
I also dont see how the bike can control my weight shift - what donyou mean here ?

I'll do (try) and do a picture as hat tends to help explain things. It's a simple concept yet it's also difficult to grasp and possibly the single one thing that I used to spend most time explaining.

Do the same principles apply regardless of terrain?

Pretty much Andy.

[whitestone]

Do the same principles apply regardless of terrain? I'm a rear-brake dragging nervous wreck when it comes to anything vaguely long or steep, regardless of terrain. I sometimes wonder why I even ride bikes beyond commuting

Pretty much. One way to think about it is to try and keep your head at a constant distance above the ground. That means you can't ride with rigid legs (we'll assume you are heading downhill and so coasting and not pedalling) as every change in the surface will cause your head to move. So the first thing is to have bent arms and legs so that they can act as suspension - the front wheel rises over a bump so you increase the bend. (That's very simplistic - it's not just a case of having bent legs but also bending at the hip and moving your body slightly so that your CofG remains over the BB). A good analogy would be the old French ski instructors saying "Bend zee knees!", it's not the bending of the knees that increases control but the moving forward of your CofG that you counteract by bending your knees.

As the bumps get bigger having a dropper post gives you more room to bend your legs and absorb changes in terrain. Droppers are THE game changer for technical riding IMO, but if you've got a seat pack and rear suspension then their range is slightly limited.

The "don't sit on the rear wheel" is really saying "keep your weight centred over the BB rather than just stick your arse out the back", if it gets steep enough you will effectively be sitting on the rear wheel but your weight will still be centred over the BB.

To improve, try following someone you trust who's a little better than you down a descent that you feel is just a little beyond you.

[Lazarus]

Good advice on following someone but ask them to go a bit slower than usual or talk you through a hard bit (often we dont really know what we do - i used to think the bike did most of the work till i knackered up my collar bone . For a year i really was a passemger on a bike ( could not really mobe about) and its amazing how much you shift weight descending/ prepare for hits drops etc .
Also respect your limit.. We all.have a point at which we are declining to ride. ( and mine is massively changed by solo, weighted bike and tired)

[Lazarus]

I'll do (try) and do a picture

Thanks

[Bearbonesnorm]

Might help, might not

It's about the ability to pivot around the BB - hence maintaining a loose / relaxed grip, not holding the saddle with your knees and most certainly not sitting down. All those things 'lock' you to the bike and prevent relative movement between you and it. Aim to remain stood fairly 'tall' with knees slightly bent ... much more than that and it'll become an SAS stress position. Let the bike do the thinking and put you where it needs you to be.

You're always (just about always) aiming to have your mass through the pedals and into the bottom bracket. This makes the bike stable but as you might deduct from the drawing, hanging your arse off the back will shift your mass behind the BB and to a degree 'lock' you in position again. Once that happens then our not inconsiderable mass can act as a pendulum on rough terrain. Sometimes that effect will escalate until we get thrown off or grab the brakes ... the result tends to be the same either way.

[riderdown]

I'd just stump up and pay for some coaching either 1:1 or small group.

I saw some bearded bloke in mid Wales who tried (successfully) to scare the crap out of me stringing a series of jumps and drops together

Still have the t-shirt

A dropper also makes a massive difference even a short drop one

[fatbikephil]

Hmm. I see what you are saying stu and I think I'm doing that most of the time. But there always seems a point when you have to shift your weight right back to avoid a hideous face plant.

We need a sash on this at the next bb200

Anyway I'm writing this whilst lying in my bivvy in the borders after an easy road ride so I'll not get a chance to try it out for a few days

[Lazarus]

Ok ( and cheers stu) I think we are all on the same page but just describing different steepness. So this pic (from bike ride today @ PaulE ) shows both weight /rear well back and weight over BB. i assume we all see that as fine for that and madness/ not advised on less steep stuff, which I assume stu often saw when coaching ?

[fatbikephil]

That looks affy steep!

But that is how I would tackle such a thing

[PaulE]

My weight is well back, but my arms and legs are still well bent with centre of mass over the BB. Yep Phil, it was very steep - camera was a bit tilted as those trees are actually vertical!

Pretty much in agreement with what's been said though, keep the weight between the wheels, elbows bent and grip relaxed.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HFwcMYcAw4ZXmTPm6

That might show the video of it - not claiming it's any kind of masterclass, but other than the little hop at the top (I messed up the line into the roll, and didn't want to put my front wheel into a groove just behind the edge) I'm pretty happy to have done that line for the first time!

[redefined_cycles]

Might help, might not

It's about the ability to pivot around the BB - hence maintaining a loose / relaxed grip, not holding the saddle with your knees and most certainly not sitting down. All those things 'lock' you to the bike and prevent relative movement between you and it. Aim to remain stood fairly 'tall' with knees slightly bent ... much more than that and it'll become an SAS stress position. Let the bike do the thinking and put you where it needs you to be.

You're always (just about always) aiming to have your mass through the pedals and into the bottom bracket. This makes the bike stable but as you might deduct from the drawing, hanging your arse off the back will shift your mass behind the BB and to a degree 'lock' you in position again. Once that happens then our not inconsiderable mass can act as a pendulum on rough terrain. Sometimes that effect will escalate until we get thrown off or grab the brakes ... the result tends to be the same either way.

Thanks v much for this Stu. I would always hang bottom back and push down the bars. Worked OK but always a tense operation (and not very comfy in the lactate building dept). It's gonna help indeed as I have a repeat descent to do many many times...

[redefined_cycles]

Ok ( and cheers stu) I think we are all on the same page but just describing different steepness. So this pic (from bike ride today @ PaulE ) shows both weight /rear well back and weight over BB. i assume we all see that as fine for that and madness/ not advised on less steep stuff, which I assume stu often saw when coaching ?

That's how I'd tackle it too. So I'm not doing too bad. Just need to relax more over constant DH terrain. I can manage a slab/rock or two. But when it becomes lots of rocks all over I get slightly overwhelmed. Thanks the pic...

[riderdown]

.
But that is how I would tackle such a thing

I'd be walking or riding the chicken line