OT question for the hive mind.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I've been given the task of making some 'fire arrows' and while the arrows present no problem, I am struggling to find something that doesn't get blown out once the arrows are shot ... they leave the bow at over 150fps.

I've tried a few different things so far such as meths, white spirit, that horrible fuel gel stuff and while they all look like nothing will snuff them out, none will remain lit for the duration of a 60yd shot. Anyone got any ideas for a substance or concoction that once lit isn't going out regardless of what you do to it ... napalm seems quite difficult to get hold of sadly.

Some people drill out the shaft and pop a sparkler in the arrow - it does work but seems like cheating to me. Little is known about what was used 600 years ago but black powder (or similar) seems likely but as napalm, it's not easily sourced.

Any ideas greatfully received.

[Mariner]

You might like this it uses gaffer tape.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Creatin ... hat-Works/

[atk]

What do they use for fire dancing (poi?)? That's a lot of swingin' burning balls and waving flaming poles around in a somewhat vigorous manner...

Edit: turns out most modern stuff in the UK is done with kerosene and uses kevlar or Technora wicks.

[techno]

homemade napalm?
You dissolve polystyrene balls in petrol i think. (I don't fancy googling the recipe at work!)

[GregMay]

Correct with the polystyrene in petrol. Just be careful, it is exceptionally volatile.

[atk]

I assume you're attempting to recreate this scene...

[benp1]

- Magnesium ribbon?
- Something like an ember? If it's hot enough the wind should heat it, rather than blow it out. Might be hard to attach though...

I'm on a work computer and scared of googling too much for fear or being put in the warning-nutter-alert category

(I'm guessing you've perused the results of a google search, which seem to be many but haven't read through the answers)

[Dave Barter]

Wikipedia says gunpowder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_arrow

[sean_iow]

Some kind of natural resin or tar? Just thinking out loud as to what would be available in the olden days. Perhaps pine resin? Something less volatile where the action of the air will help it burn rather than blow it out?

[whitestone]

I'd look at something along the lines of strips of cloth dipped/soaked in a mixture of old sump oil and diesel.

This from Wikipedia:

"it torches (burning sticks) were likely the earliest form of incendiary device. They were followed by incendiary arrows, which were used throughout the ancient and medieval periods. The simplest flaming arrows had oil- or resin-soaked tows tied just below the arrowhead and were effective against wooden structures.[13] Both the Assyrians and the Judeans used fire arrows at the siege of Lachish in 701 BC.[54] More sophisticated devices were developed by the Romans which had iron boxes and tubes which were filled with incendiary substances and attached to arrows or spears. These arrows needed to be shot from loose bows, since swift flight extinguished the flame; spears could be launched by hand or throwing machine.[55]

Flaming arrows required the shooter to get quite close to their desired target and most will have extinguished themselves before reaching the target. In response, another form of fire arrow was developed which consisted of curved metal bars connecting a tip and hollow end for the shaft. The resulting cage was filled with hot coals or other solid object which could be fired from a much stronger bow or ballista without fear of extinguishing and would be used to ignite straw or thatch roofs from a safer distance."

[Moder-dye]

The torches for up helly aa up here are wrapped in dense hessian and then soaked in a mix of paraffin and diesel I think. I don't know the actual mix though.

They burn well in high winds and for a long time. Could be worth a try?

I guess basically what he ∆ said while I was typing.

[PaulB2]

I believe my reenactment group has used some form of gunpowder impregnated material (sheep's fleece?) wrapped around the top of the shaft. Doing that generally needs a gunpowder license though (and strictly speaking so does loosing the arrow)

[psling]

Just been talking to Brian Lee, he couldn't recall what is used I'm afraid.
He did tell me though that there will be a bowmakers weekend at his place near Monmouth next year sometime. Can't recall when but apparently he learnt about it on fb.! He's a real character but it would appear his memory is fading a bit now he's in his mid-70s. He was up in Mach recently demonstrating at an Owain Glyndwr exhibition - did you attend?

[Bearbonesnorm]

He was up in Mach recently demonstrating at an Owain Glyndwr exhibition - did you attend?

Knew nothing about it Peter until just now. I'll look out for the Monmouth gathering, I tried to get down to one earlier this year but snow stopped play this end.

Okay ... I like the sound of homemade napalm. I shall be giving that a go and will keep you updated with pictures from Aberystywth A&E as accidents happen

[Mike]

Sorry pal I totally forgot to reply to you on this....No real problem though as iv not got a clue but if I were trying this I'd probably go for old engine oil or something. However I'm not sure folk would appreciate it damaging the environment with loads of black smoke trailing

[Bearbonesnorm]

Sorry pal I totally forgot to reply to you on this....No real problem though as iv not got a clue but if I were trying this I'd probably go for old engine oil or something. However I'm not sure folk would appreciate it damaging the environment with loads of black smoke trailing

You don't go up ladders either ... are you sure you're a fireman?

[Farawayvisions]

I used to own some rush lights which were an old method of lighting. They were simple iron structures with a part where you could stuff straw/rushes dipped in tallow or some form of animal fat to which you could light. They burned for quite a decent amount of time so I'm thinking you could possibly do a modification on that?

[ianfitz]

I have no knowledge of this issue but it's an interesting problem to solve.

Essentially you're looking for something that will stay alight when it's suddenly exposed to 100mph+ wind. And stay lit for long enough including 1.5 seconds got flight. Do you need actual flame or heat to igniter stuff on arrival at the target? Something that will be vigorous and exothermic in its reaction would do the latter.

Napalm, I heard, could be replicated by petrol with the addition of washing up liquid. Never tried it myself. Funnily enough!

Edit - this chap is a bit posh and has a lovely pullover but has clearly thought a lot about fire arrows - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTd_0FR ... e=youtu.be

Maybe you could tell people that they just aren't historically accurate so you haven't brought any

[MuddyPete]

It's nearly Guy Fawkes night: just strap a rocket to the arrow.

Proper job

[MuddyPete]

...and fire it at a can of petrol

[Justchris]

Paraffin and wire wool. Leaving to soak overnight, so paraffin turns almost waxy. No diesel or petrol. You need alot more paraffin than you think.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Yesterday was the big day and I'm happy to report that the arrows designed by the hive mind were the best arrows present ... they remained alight covering a good 60yds to the cardboard castle and better still, they produced a very load, crowd pleasing 'whoosh' when loosed

Thanks for the input all.

[psling]

Yesterday was the big day and I'm happy to report that the arrows designed by the hive mind were the best arrows present ... they remained alight covering a good 60yds to the cardboard castle and better still, they produced a very load, crowd pleasing 'whoosh' when loosed

Thanks for the input all.

What did you use after?

[Mariner]

Yesterday was the big day and I'm happy to report that the arrows designed by the hive mind were the best arrows present ... they remained alight covering a good 60yds to the cardboard castle and better still, they produced a very load, crowd pleasing 'whoosh' when loosed

Thanks for the input all.

So what was the method of construction?

[Bearbonesnorm]

What did you use after?

Good point.

First job was to find some extra long shafts. Arrow shafts tend to come in a 32" standard length but I knew from previous experiments that something longer was required. You can buy longer shafts but they tend to be for warbows, so 1/2" diameter and made from heavy wood like Ash, which would be of no use to Dee. The pound shop in Newtown provided the answer in the shape of a dozen 4' long garden canes. They were quite twisted but cane's easily straightened with heat ... so I straightened them, ground the nodes smooth and cut them down to 38".

At the business end, I used a sparkler cut in two with the wire ends bent to form a hook. I drilled the centre of the shaft a small way to give the hooks somewhere to sit, positioned the sparklers 180 degrees apart and wired them to the shaft at their ends.

Next, I cut some thin lengths of crepe bandage which I soaked in a solution of melted wax and paraffin. While still warm I wrapped the ends of the shaft with the bandage so it just covered the tip of the sparklers. Medium wire wool was then lovingly teased apart and a thin layer wrapped the length of the sparklers, a second thin layer followed and the top and bottom was wired to the shaft.

The whole bundle was then covered in the wax / paraffin solution and allowed to drip dry. A quick covering of cling film and they were good to go.

IMO the nice thing about these was that they looked like fire arrows when shot, not simply like an arrow with a sparker stuck in the end. Hopefully, someone might have a picture somewhere. I have a look and post if I find something.