food on the second day of a multiday ride.

[Justchris]

The ht550 thread has taken on a food theme at the moment. But I was wondering if anyone struggles to eat after the first day of a multi day trip. Three times I have suffered on the second day of a long ride, and its all because I cannot eat. A few weeks ago I had a multiple barfing session in tomintol and braemar trying to forcing food down. It starts when I wake up on the second day. Any food makes my mouth completly fill up with saliva, and your fighting not to chunder. So the bonk is never far away. you go into a shop and stare blankly at food.shaking your head knowing you cannot eat something you would usually be looking for seconds of.when I am at this stage the only source of sugar I can have is fizzy drinks, drunk really slowly. The more I think of it, I am starting to realise even on the first day I struggle to eat adequatly. Does anyone else have this problem, and how have they overcome it. Or is this normal and repeated experience will make me deal with it. What are other peoples eating stratagies. Or eating dilemas they have had to overcome.

Looking forward to the feedback.

Chris.

[Richpips]

Sounds like you may be over exerting yourself when riding.

If you are riding flat out, then your stomach will struggle to digest food. I've had that in 24 hour races.

The only other suggestion, I have, is to stay on top of hydration, and eat little and often.

[Richard G]

I usually stick to the guidelines of 55g or so of carbs an hour (for my weight) and then hit the protein and fat fairly hard whenever I can digest it with no problems (evening / morning). It's a tiny amount of food (~6 shot bloks) so you're very unlikely to struggle to eat it. I've never had any problems with digestion doing it that way, but it sounds like your problem may lie elsewhere anyway. Are you drinking enough? It's REALLY hard to persuade your body to take on significant nutrients when you're dehydrated.

My nephew struggles with food after a ride. Oddly enough he can do 6 hours or more and then not even feel slightly hungry. Though he does the next day. Tis very strange.

But yeah, those even that small amount of carbs properly distributed throughout the day should be enough to stop you from bonking. I also tend to train fasted (anywhere up to a three hour ride), which forces my body to adapt to using oxygen and body fat as fuel.

[Drillmaster1]

I think its fairly normal to have decreased appetite in these circumstances. The hunger hormone ghrelin is suppressed during strenuos exercise but then increases for a time afterwards which is why a lot of us feel hungry for a day or days after prolonged events.
I myself suffer from nausea occasionally in such circumstances but never enough to be sick.
As has been said already little and often is the best approach and personally for I always prefer 'real food' as apposed to sports bars/gels /drinks although they have their place.
Ambrosia creamed rice in the small plastic pots, bananas, malt loaf,milk when available, and more savoury items like crisps nuts etc too work for me.
If you drink a lot of soft drinks then you create a hypertonic solution in your stomach which can lead to nausea and sickness.
I find that if I'm not over exerting myself i.e. not into the red in terms of effort. it can be surprising how little food you need to get by on, so as has already been suggested maybe you are going too hard too soon and suffering later. Going just a little slower can use more of your body fat stores which are basically unlimited in terms of calories available, whereas the glycogen stored in muscles and liver will last only a few hours.
As I'm sure you already know its all measuring your effort over the whole event.
For me in preparation, a few pre breakfast rides of 2-3 hours done fasted seems to help
Always stay hydrated, preferably with electrolye tabs/sachets occasionally too.
Hope this helps

[AlasdairMc]

I've had similar, when you wake up on the second day or beyond and you feel like you're already on a bonk. I've put that down to being in a calorie deficit overnight so remedied that by eating right up until bedtime. Taking water with food is also very important, I find that I can't digest cereal bars until I've put down enough liquid to begin the process.

I've not had the saliva or vomiting thing, but I have been so worn out that I couldn't eat in the morning, and for that it really was a case of taking sweet liquids until I felt human and then starting on the foods again. It was game over at that point for me on that event though, nothing was bringing me back from that.

I agree with what others say about over-exertion - weren't you something like 21hrs in at Tomintoul?

[GregMay]

Chris,

Suggestion - knock back a few gears when you're riding and get the intensity down low, like real low. Lower than that again. Then ditch the sugar water until you need it. If it hammer that crap from the start, you're playing the fun game of insulin ping-pong. Eventually you'll lose.

For me, my main source of fuel on multi day rides is going to always be from fats topped up with CHO later in the race/ride. If you'd looked in my bag at the CGLoop you'd have mostly found Babybel and Peparami. Gramme for gramme, higher energy content - if you can process it. Big if. This is something I've worked on with myself, and people who've raced at RAAM and the RAI. It's probably too late to do anything about it for the HT550 sadly.

For a 24 or 12...I'll just smash sugar and deal with the fallout (literal) in the loo the next day. I can tolerate about 90g of CHO per hour with no issue. I can't do this multi day - and I've tried with not nice consequences.

Dr.Greg.

[rosscopeco]

I've suffered with this on loads of occasions with Mr Hughie paying more than one visit. Not a nice experience...

Through much trial & error I've discovered that I can only consume so much sugary produces before I get that horrible feeling of wanting to throw up, or my stomach starts to reject food. I've had a couple of terrible trips where it got to the point where my stomach literally stopped accepting anything...inc water....messy!

For me, I'm with Dr.Greg...I now eat more savoury / fatty / nutty foods mixed in with the humble oatcake. I'll still have a bag of sweets but it's only for rare snacks or when I get bored with Oatcakes!

Strangely and counterintuitively, milk seem to settle my stomach better than anything else. I've on occasion stuffed a bottle of milk in my kit and will have a gulp or two if things get a bit dodgy...IWFM!

It's taken me several years of trial and error to eventually get to this point. It also worth stating that my 'normal' diet doesn't have many carbs anyway i.e. no bread, pasta, rice or much sugar so as Dr.Greg suggests it took time and effort before my body could operate on this kind of diet.

Keith Bremner who finished 7th on last years HT550 swears by training on an empty stomach such that your body eventually learns to use fat as the main source of energy....but it's not nice and takes months of training on that basis.

[Zippy]

For me, my main source of fuel on multi day rides is going to always be from fats topped up with CHO later in the race/ride. If you'd looked in my bag at the CGLoop you'd have mostly found Babybel and Peparami. Gramme for gramme, higher energy content - if you can process it. Big if. This is something I've worked on with myself, and people who've raced at RAAM and the RAI.

Dr.Greg.

I know a tiny bit about nutrition and how your body process' etc. But my question is Dr Greg, how long is the adaptation process' do you reckon to be able to process the more complex carbs and be able to use them? I think I'm pretty good at feeling what my body needs and it includes craving for vits and more complex carbs as well as the more instant energy - but whilst riding multi-day I think I'd struggle to keep the intake up and need to use my flapjacks etc.
Any further reading you suggest? I'm probably at almost stage 1 of (ultra?) endurance nutrition.

[Richard G]

Keith Bremner who finished 7th on last years HT550 swears by training on an empty stomach such that your body eventually learns to use fat as the main source of energy....but it's not nice and takes months of training on that basis.

It's really not that bad. It sucks for the first few weeks of training that way and then it becomes perfectly normal.

I used to absolutely rely on my pre workout / ride meal and now I'm amazed to think I ever needed it. I'll happily do 3 hours of riding (moderate intensity) after a 16 hour fast now.

[GregMay]

Caution - long post, slight rant.

Before that - on the fasted side of riding. Yes, it's good, and it works. Caveat - you need to knock intensity RIGHT BACK on these rides and be prepared to fail massively. Also, I'd avoid unless you're pretty fit already.

I know a tiny bit about nutrition and how your body process' etc. But my question is Dr Greg, how long is the adaptation process'

I too know a bit, a PhDs worth and a bit But in answer to the question. For me, it took about 4-5 years of Ironman and endurance specific work. BUT, I was coming from the position of an ex track sprinter, and still racing CX at a relatively high level. Other IM or RAAM athletes I've worked with, probably taken about 12-18 months of solid focus. With already endurance trained people, 12 months is about normal. The paybacks though are vaguely exciting, really quite stunning when it all slots into place and you do a 3-4 hour ride with zero food at a relatively fast pace. But it's all about getting the engine to work well.

do you reckon to be able to process the more complex carbs and be able to use them?

Probably, but once again - more energy in a gramme of fat than in a gramme of CHO and our body has lots of adipose and intramuscular fat.

I think I'm pretty good at feeling what my body needs and it includes craving for vits and more complex carbs as well as the more instant energy - but whilst riding multi-day I think I'd struggle to keep the intake up and need to use my flapjacks etc.

Why? It's not that your energy levels are dropping, it's that your maintaining an unsustainable level of intensity for your ability to repleat your glycogen system. This is the general error that people make. "Ohh I need to eat more" rather than "oh, I should slow down now and let my fat stores do the work". It's like how everyone cares about their shiny shiny for their bikes rather than the training their body should be doing. All the flapjacks in the world won't help you if you can't process the CHO as you're breathing out your ass.
Lets call a spade a spade. Any of you have enough energy stored as fat, either adipose or intramuscular, to fuel a 6hr ride. The issue is not energy stores, its the capacity of your body to access and burn that fuel. Otherwise known as efficiency. Training teaches your body to do this - when focused.

Any further reading you suggest? I'm probably at almost stage 1 of (ultra?) endurance nutrition.

Lots, there is lots. The issue is finding things that aren't junk. Going Long by Gordo Byrne is a good place to start - albeit with a triathlon focus. If you can wade through most of the gTips on his old website there are some excellent articles there: http://www.coachgordo.com/gtips/
Racing Weight by Matt Fitzgerald is good...if a bit controversial in places. TBH, most of the really interesting bits will be in the scientific literature, the really interesting focus articles on the likes of RAAM and so on.

Now, pass me a pie.

[fatbikephil]

Interesting stuff this. I'd read a fair bit on the RAAM website but found it heavy going for a slacker like me. The one bit of info I did glean was training your body to eat lots (hurrah!) ie getting use to scoffing 300 - 500 calories and hour - well before an event which goes against what Keith did..... The go slow bit is the clincher as this seems to allow you a lot of leeway on eating. Last year on the HT I had too much crap, allied to going to fast = upset stomach and an inability to eat anything like enough to make up the deficit and fuel me for the next day, hence my total crash. Since then I've sussed out a variety of food that seems to work - cheese oatcakes, cashew nuts and bananas work well for me backed up by a max of 2 or 3 gels a day (or a dose of drink powder stuff) for a bit of a hit if I'm flagging. Haribo for an instant sugar rush when I'm down. On top of this I'll eat a big load of real food whenever its available (with a bias towards protein fat and carbs natch), washed down with plenty of tea.

[Zippy]

I know a tiny bit about nutrition and how your body process' etc

I too know a bit, a PhDs worth and a bit

My tiny bit of knowledge comes initially from a few lectures by namely Barry Murray when we drafted him into our cycling club - we also did some some on how body adaptation and training etc. worked too. Then did my own reading too. Only pretty superficial overview stuff though.

I think I'm pretty good at feeling what my body needs and it includes craving for vits and more complex carbs as well as the more instant energy - but whilst riding multi-day I think I'd struggle to keep the intake up and need to use my flapjacks etc.

Why? It's not that your energy levels are dropping, it's that your maintaining an unsustainable level of intensity for your ability to repleat your glycogen system. This is the general error that people make. "Ohh I need to eat more" rather than "oh, I should slow down now and let my fat stores do the work". It's like how everyone cares about their shiny shiny for their bikes rather than the training their body should be doing. All the flapjacks in the world won't help you if you can't process the CHO as you're breathing out your ass.
Lets call a spade a spade. Any of you have enough energy stored as fat, either adipose or intramuscular, to fuel a 6hr ride. The issue is not energy stores, its the capacity of your body to access and burn that fuel. Otherwise known as efficiency. Training teaches your body to do this - when focused.

Yes sorry, let my qualify that a bit. I can feel when my exertion is high and when I'm coming to the end of the carbs I'm using and won't have much more (but not quite as far as being on the edge of a bonk...maybe really early on), and so I know that if I want to maintain that level of exertion I need to feed some more carbs, or I need to knock my level down to keep going. I haven't really ridden enough on multi-day stuff to feel where / how that balance is yet admittedly.
The interesting recent twist to this is learning about when it's cold and actually if you slow down coz you feel you're burning your energy too quick, coz you've knocked your exertion down, you're not generating as much heat and so your body is using more energy than before both fuelling you moving AND using energy to keep you warm rather than just using the by product of high exertion to keep you warm - but it's really difficult to notice. You just find it strange you're feeling dead despite backing the pace off (this explanation is simplified and probably not as eloquently put as the article I first read it from!)

Any further reading you suggest? I'm probably at almost stage 1 of (ultra?) endurance nutrition.

Lots, there is lots. The issue is finding things that aren't junk. Going Long by Gordo Byrne is a good place to start - albeit with a triathlon focus. If you can wade through most of the gTips on his old website there are some excellent articles there: http://www.coachgordo.com/gtips/
Racing Weight by Matt Fitzgerald is good...if a bit controversial in places. TBH, most of the really interesting bits will be in the scientific literature, the really interesting focus articles on the likes of RAAM and so on.
Now, pass me a pie.

Thanks, I'll do some reading I'll look up a few bits of scientific literature too - my academic subscription left over from my masters is still active for a bit - any journals you recommend?

Thanks for taking the time to respond Dr May

[GregMay]

Lots to reply to simple bits:

CHO Use - the reason you're running out of CHO is because you're going harder than you can sustain for the given duration. Not that you can't go fast, you're just not efficient at it. If you want to go fast over multi days, slow down in training. Then go slower, for longer.

Heat - heat is a by product, not something that you create persay. Again, fuel that you burn is what drives the heat, not the other way round. Hot muscles are also somewhat inefficient form a bioenergetics point of view - as in they don't work as well in an aerobic sense. And you shouldn't be using them anaerobicly anyway.

Reading - start with the easy things, then worry about the science after.

[AlasdairMc]

This is a really good thread - definitely one that I'll be reading with interest. It's useful to balance the anecdotal experience to the actual science, and there's definitely food for thought (pun intended) around how best to balance training, racing and nutrition.

[Zippy]

Greg, what's your opinion of Tudor Bompa? Notably this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Periodization-M ... 073607483X which I haven't read but have been informed that it's "the bible" on the subject. I have read Friel though.
My limited thoughts are multi-day stuff starts to move outside the general scope of these, so you have to apply the theory yourself.

Need to read more...it's been a while since I was reading all this jazz

[whitestone]

I make up wraps with some sort of bean mix/stew, cheese, salsa and some lettuce or salad leaves maybe fish in the stew as well. Wrap in foil and put in a freezer bag - they'll be fine for a couple of days (temperature dependent) reasonably easy to eat without stopping as well. Filling, easy to eat as they stay moist and not too sugary.

High energy or rather high energy density foods will include a nut mix and marzipan (despite the latter's high sugar content).

[Richard G]

On the subject, I'm sure most of you have already seen this, but this book is vaguely exciting for on the go nutrition ideas:

Feed Zone Portables: A Cookbook of On-The-Go Food for Athletes

[Justchris]

thanks for all the feedback.

I think I have some reading to do. I appreciate that people on this forum are prepared to share knowledge whether gained through experience or reserch. it allows someone like me, to figuire out how to train and eat properly for multiday rides. and I think alot of people will find it usefull. so again thank you.


Alastair. 21hours sounds about right. I still haven't downloaded from my gps. I am still p×$$€# about the cairngorm loop. but I had other issues than my stomach andfood. bailing down glen tilt was the correct thing to do.
this topic was me trying to figuire what happened to me. best of luck on the ht550. I recon you will need about 125 stoat bars!

thanks

chris

[GregMay]

Greg, what's your opinion of Tudor Bompa? Notably this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Periodization-M ... 073607483X which I haven't read but have been informed that it's "the bible" on the subject. I have read Friel though.
My limited thoughts are multi-day stuff starts to move outside the general scope of these, so you have to apply the theory yourself.

Need to read more...it's been a while since I was reading all this jazz

Dropped the ball on remembering to reply to this.

IMHO Bompa is a great, if dated, read on how to set up periodisation. But, you need to realise it's quite mathematic, and not particularly flexible.
Friel has his place, but I disagree with a lot of his ideas.

As you said though, most of this is focused on single peaks, not multi day peaks either.

[Blackhound]

Greg - read your blog earlier and the podcast a couple of days ago you tweeted out. Yesterday I read some Joe Friel and he was promoting protein from animal sources being best. (Book was aimed at 50)
As your average man on a bike trail sometimes difficult to know what to believe.

[Richard G]

Probably in terms of being a "complete" protein, ie, a protein that contains all of the essential amino acids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein
http://www.shape.com/healthy-eating/die ... e-proteins

[GregMay]

Yesterday I read some Joe Friel and he was promoting protein from animal sources being best. (Book was aimed at 50)
As your average man on a bike trail sometimes difficult to know what to believe.

Like I said - some of Friels work is good - some is tosh.

Protein is protein. Once you're taking in enough from a bioavailible source you are fine. UK and US diet already provides more than enough - cavaet, if plant based it is important to make sure you are hitting all the amino acids that you need to take in. This usually requires a variety of sources. Also, you're going to have to supplement B12 as it's not available from plant sources - but I digress.

If you're playing the game - animal = protein source, you're thinking incorrectly. Example, a chicken breast has about 23g of protein /100g, chickpeas 19g/100g, cashew nuts 18g/100g, bulgur wheat 12g/100g, spirulina 57g/100g. If you want to go for a highly bioavailible and dense protein source, try spirulina. But then everything is green, which is odd.

But, for 90% of people, especially most cyclists - getting enough protein is not going to be an issue if you have a sensible diet. Simple rule to follow - if you're about to eat something, can you tell me what is in it without looking at the packet?

[GregMay]

Probably in terms of being a "complete" protein, ie, a protein that contains all of the essential amino acids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein
http://www.shape.com/healthy-eating/die ... e-proteins

And a crap load of fat. Lets not forget that.

edit - saturated fat - fat is not bad, only certain types of fat are, and ratios of other ones.

[Richard G]

I think I might skip eating 100g of spirulina.

But yeah, obviously the fat content of animal protein depends on the source. Tuna steak, Chicken breast and Turkey breast, not so much. Pork belly... somewhat more!

[GregMay]

I think I might skip eating 100g of spirulina.

But yeah, obviously the fat content of animal protein depends on the source. Tuna steak, Chicken breast and Turkey breast, not so much. Pork belly... somewhat more!

Agree with you on turkey and tuna, chicken - not so much.

Lets put some numbers down:

Beef fat content - 30g/ 100g - 30%
Pork fat content - 14g/ 100g - 14%
Chicken fat content - 13g/ 100g - 13%
Turkey fat content - 7g/ 100g - 7%
Tuna fat content - 6g/ 100g - 6%
Horse fat content - 5g/100g - 5%

Chicken is touted as the "healthy option" and it is far, far from it. So go eat horse, less fat, better exercised, crap farming practices though :/