Could I die?

[frogatthefarriers]

After my BAM 1/12 a couple of weeks ago, I was telling my mates in work about it - well bragging actually, when one of them asked "What if you'd died of cold?"

Now, I reckon if I'd got that cold I would have woken up before I froze, but I don't know.

But I bet one of you lot does?

Lu.

[ianfitz]

Not likely really.

Have a read of this article written by ian W a fellow fell runner and MRT member. Aimed at fell runners but the physics of anyone travelling in a fast and light situation applies...

http://everythingoutdoors.co.uk/hypothe ... treatment/

[voodoo_simon]

Read hanging by a thread by Emmanuel cauchy. He's a French doctor in Chamonix and in his book, he talks about climbers that have body temperatures of 23c (heart rate of 30 b/m), presumed dead but he can bring them (very slowly) around. I think the body will long survive in harsh conditions, even when the brain has disengaged

[Richpips]

http://everythingoutdoors.co.uk/hypothe ... treatment/

Excellent link Ian.

My experience is that if you wake up cold and are not already exhausted, you'll just have a miserable night there if you don't have warm food/drink/more clothes to hand. If you can't get warm, get out of there.

I've had hypothermia whilst doing a climbing trip in the cairngorms in winter. Learn the symptoms. If you are on your own (and I was fortunate I wasn't). You go from feeling cold and tired to not giving a care very quickly.

Looking back what was scariest, is that once it had really set in, I felt content and warm.

[ianfitz]

http://everythingoutdoors.co.uk/hypothe ... treatment/

Excellent link Ian.

My experience is that if you wake up cold and are not already exhausted, you'll just have a miserable night there if you don't have warm food/drink/more clothes to hand. If you can't get warm, get out of there.

I've had hypothermia whilst doing a climbing trip in the cairngorms in winter. Learn the symptoms. If you are on your own (and I was fortunate I wasn't). You go from feeling cold and tired to not giving a care very quickly.

Looking back what was scariest, is that once it had really set in, I felt content and warm.

reports from MRT folk who have recovered bodies of people who've dies from hypothermia is that theres sometimes a trail of clothes leading to the body. The way I understand it is that theres a physological component of 'well being, but in the very late stages the hyper-thalamus has a ''last roll of the dice' and pushes all that blood back to the muscles to try try to get you going which results in feeling overly warm - hence removing clothing.

[Yorlin]

I think if you go to bed warm you should be okay? I've woken up from cold a bunch of times... it's if you're in the 'tired' stage of hypothermia you're in trouble. Someone else here can explain it a lot better :)

[FLV]

I once woke up soooo cold in scotland in winter, cairngorms too as it happens. I wasnt properly prepared, didnt have enough gear, was in a wooden shed / bothie on my own, had a flask of malt before bed so felt warm and slept.

Woke up 3 hours later very very cold. My water was frozen in my bottles, couldnt light the stove, couldnt get warm wearing everything.

eventually, I got scared and realised nothing was about to get better anytime soon. I packed as best I could and headed out. I rode / ran for a long time begging the sun to come up, when it did, and the shops opened it was truly glorious.

*edit.
Unlikely to die, but if you get it wrong, its scary!

[Alpinum]

I'm convinced you'll not wake up right before dying. Once you're asleep with very serious hypothermia, you'll just fade away.
When I'm serious cold, I wake up shivering and stay awake. This is still far from anything serious. But mind breakfast. I had spasms shaking me so furiously, I threw my brekkers away.

Open brain surgery is often made on cooled brains to lower risks of chronic damage.

And I think very important: a dead body needs to be warm and dead. Sounds stupid but I have a friend who made that mistake. You can't detect breath and pulse on a seriously hypothermic person as the vital signs get really slow and very weak... Beck Weathers is a fine example...

[FLV]

Good point, Beck Weathers is a scary story.

[Ben98]

reports from MRT folk who have recovered bodies of people who've dies from hypothermia is that theres sometimes a trail of clothes leading to the body. The way I understand it is that theres a physological component of 'well being, but in the very late stages the hyper-thalamus has a ''last roll of the dice' and pushes all that blood back to the muscles to try try to get you going which results in feeling overly warm - hence removing clothing.

As far as I'm aware, this is called "paradoxical undressing" as anyone who gets to that point of hypothermia never survives to explain why they did it

[Ray Young]

had a flask of malt before bed so felt warm

Drinking alcohol makes you feel warm because it dilates the blood capillaries on the surface of the body. This may feel good but is in fact bad as you are actually radiating body heat away from you rather than keeping the heat in the core of your body. If you think you are going to be cold through the night then the last thing you want to do is drink alcohol.

[Alpinum]

had a flask of malt before bed so felt warm

Drinking alcohol makes you feel warm because it dilates the blood capillaries on the surface of the body. This may feel good but is in fact bad as you are actually radiating body heat away from you rather than keeping the heat in the core of your body. If you think you are going to be cold through the night then the last thing you want to do is drink alcohol.

Very true.

And yet, Barry the famous avalanche rescue dog carried more than a dram around; if it's very likely to get into warm safety in 10 min, drinking a little alcohol will facilitate further treatment to get the body warm again, because of exactly the same reason stated by Ray.

[FLV]

had a flask of malt before bed so felt warm

Drinking alcohol makes you feel warm because it dilates the blood capillaries on the surface of the body. This may feel good but is in fact bad as you are actually radiating body heat away from you rather than keeping the heat in the core of your body. If you think you are going to be cold through the night then the last thing you want to do is drink alcohol.

Very true.

And yet, Barry the famous avalanche rescue dog carried more than a dram around; if it's very likely to get into warm safety in 10 min, drinking a little alcohol will facilitate further treatment to get the body warm again, because of exactly the same reason stated by Ray.

I didnt drink it to stay warm. I drank it cos I was cosy and ok and I like it.

But I take your points.

[Ray Young]

I drank it cos I was cosy and ok and I like it.

I like it too and and only have whiskey free nights if I'm out for more than two nights .

[Matt]

I found on the Winter Bivi preBivi drinking alcohol really helped me keep warm.

In fact only when I stopped and left the pub did I feel the cold.

[Ian]

I remember reading of a strange case of a group of geologists in siberia discovered naked outside their hut, all dead. Tried searching for reference to it, but failed.

However, in the process of not finding it, I came across this article, which is a compelling read of self-sufficiency in a very adverse environment.

--

Beck Weathers was an interesting case - not come across that one before.

[benp1]

That fell runners story is interesting

If you stop for camp and have cold feet try drinking some booze, warms them up lovely!

For most stops you're going to be eating and drinking and wearing nice dry clothes so there's no risk whatsoever

[voodoo_simon]

Great link IanF, interesting about the caffeine. Guess most of us in the winter carry a flask with coffee or finish a cold ride with one, didn't realise it could be harmful to a cold body

[jameso]

BAM 11/2 being .. ?

I would have woken up before I froze,

Most accounts of climbers stuck out in a very cold conditions talk of not wanting to fall asleep for the fear of never waking up. Waking up really cold is one level of cold but I'd imagine that a real battle against hypothermia would mean being awake and trying to stay aware of your condition as long as possible.

Beck Weathers.. Into Thin Air is well worth a read. It seems amazing that Weathers was able to snap out of that state and make it back while other climbers froze to death yards away, many hours before he got moving again.

[Matt]

jameso
BAM 11/2 being .. ?

I guessed at

Bivi a Month (No 1 of 12) - Jan

[Fat tyre kicker]

Thanks for that,I was struggling to decypher

[whitestone]

Despite being "uncomfortable" (to put it mildly) many times when out on the hill or working outside I've only ever once felt that I was approaching the first stages of hypothermia. I just started to feel "different" in a way I hadn't experienced before. Fortunately I was able to get down to the car where my wife was waiting. It took around 8 hours until I felt that I was back to normal.

The sentence in the linked article, "Hypothermia is the dominant cause in most fell runner deaths." would imply that there are lots of fell running deaths when in fact there are very, very few, I think it is still fewer than ten during races in the hundred or more years the sport has been going, not sure how many have occurred during training runs, I know of only one in recent years.

My winter biking sack contains a dry bag with a fresh set of thermal clothes. I really ought to get (and take) one of those bothy shelters to be able to get out of the wind & rain if needed. Again not a lot of weight/volume.

Back in the 1980s when I was doing a lot of winter climbing we used to change our thermal layer after the walk-in and before the climb. It took a bit of grit to strip off in a blowing gale and put a dry layer on. It did mean that we kept in shape though. Of course we had broken the first rule of winter activity: don't sweat!

[jameso]

Ahh got it.. thanks Matt. Last time I woke up really, truly cold was trying out an Ultra Minim bag in Jan 13, on the snow .. : )

[Richpips]

What is worth thinking about, is that in a lot of hypothermia cases, especially those that have happened in races, is that often the person was carrying extra clothes and food etc that had they been utilised, then maybe the outcome would have been different.

Ones decision to push on instead of taking appropriate action immediately. Which could mean stopping and putting up a shelter, or turning back only a couple of hours after setting out should not be discounted.

From early onset hypothermia to incapacity can take less than an hour.

One final thought for those new to big trips in the mountains is this - Make sure you are carrying enough food equipment and knowledge to give you a margin of error if it all starts to go tits up. You may look longingly at Ian's or AlanG's apparent lack of gear at the start line thinking "I must be carrying too much". The reality though is that they know exactly what they do need because of years of experience.

There's no kudos for winning the lightest setup at the weigh in, if your body is recovered a few days later.

[Matt]

Just don't push your gear reduction too fine.