selfsupporteduk.net and creating new off road ITTs

[VeganGraham]

It's a bit of a minimalist web site, isn't it.
I'd like to see a lot more of these ITT routes around the country, but there's not that many places where you can do any significant mileage off road without using a lot of road as well to link it all up. Not round here anyway.
The only exception to this is canal tow paths and old railway lines, so how about this as an example of a lowland Midlands 100 mile off road ride.
http://www.strava.com/activities/194597949
Nobody's going to ride it for the scenery, a good part of it is down in canal or railway cuttings and it goes through the middle of Telford and Stafford. As a mountain bike route, it's best point is that you can claim to have ridden 100 miles mostly off road and hope that no one notices there was almost no climbing.
So, is it suitable for inclusion on that list, or is it not within the spirit of self supported rides?
On the one hand, it's an uninspiring long distance slog, on the other, it's an easily accessible loop out in to the countryside from some big urban areas.

Most people must be able to make up something similar in their own area, so why are there not more long rides listed?

[Richpips]

I would say irrespective of the riding quality, it's too short. <8 hours riding unsupported is not a big ask.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I think the point of an ITT is that it's meant to be a 'proper' challange, just because you can put together a long distance route doesn't mean you should

Agree with Rich about the length too ... for a very short time the BB200 was considered the 'toughest event' in the country, now it's almost a sprint distance. The first year 2 people completed in under 24H, the second year that rose to 13 and the 'winning' time dropped by a good few hours. Last year over 30 people recorded a sub 24H time and the first home did so in under 12 hours.

[Dan_K]

I think Stuart's right. There are a lot of routes that could be included - such as the London to Brighton off road/on road return loop but in reality, they're just long day rides.
Mark (Pedalhead) on here has just created (and successfully ridden) the Ridgeway double which is still a massive 175 mile out and back but probably more beginner friendly with the less technical terrain.
I like the idea of more of these routes cropping up (I may even be tempted to do one myself!). They seem to encompass the same spirit as Audax road events.

[Richpips]

Still I think there a plenty of gaps on the UK map for ITTs.

To be a classic ITT it'll need to cover some interesting ground imho though, and have potential for at least one night out.

[Ian]

just because you can put together a long distance route doesn't mean you should

You could apply this comment to the Lakeland 200

The shortest route on the board is the TCW, 102 miles - perhaps only for the fact it was the first self-supported ITT?
The South Downs Way doesn't make the list, though the double does.

I have a 100 mile loop in the Beacons. I thought about inclusion to self-supported UK, and while it would no doubt present a challenge to some I figured I needed to bring the distance up to at least 200 km first just to stretch it into the realms of being able to be completed in daylight. I think you need to consider overall difficulty rather than it having x miles or y metres ascent and judge realistically whether it presents a genuine challenge for the majority of riders.

[ScotRoutes]

Self Supported. To me, that needs to include at least one night out. Otherwise it's just a long (if challenging) day ride. The HT550 route shows what can be achieved if sections of tarmac are included so I don't think they necessarily have to be all off-road either.

[slarge]

A real "self supported ITT" has to be a challenge to everyone - one that requires significant training and preparation, and ideally some skill (whether that's navigation, riding ability or whatever). It should also be something that many would not consider doing in a single hit - or they risk getting devalued. There is room for more though, this country (including Scotland) is big enough, just difficult to get routes that involve a lot of off road, hills, and interest.

[VeganGraham]

Fair enough, I thought I wasn't really within the spirit of the events with just a long canal ride.
I think "it'll need to cover some interesting ground and have potential for at least one night out" sums it up well, which for me, means turning left out of the gate instead of right, and heading for the Welsh border, not the industrial Midlands.

One other thing I'm wondering about is what's the feeling on using footpaths?
If I'm out on my own and it looks rideable, I'll ride it. When cars stop driving on the pavement, I will seriously consider not cycling on footpaths.
I ride a lot of Mountain Bike Orientering events and the rule is Keep Off Footpaths. Using them would be like cutting corners in a race.
Off road ITTs are sort of between the two though, so do they need to be entirely legal to be "officially" recognised?
As an extreme example (and just an example, I'm not proposing it), how about the Severn Way? 224 miles with large parts of it rough grass across riverside fields with no established worn path.

[Bearbonesnorm]

One other thing I'm wondering about is what's the feeling on using footpaths?
If I'm out on my own and it looks rideable, I'll ride it. When cars stop driving on the pavement, I will seriously consider not cycling on footpaths.
I ride a lot of Mountain Bike Orientering events and the rule is Keep Off Footpaths. Using them would be like cutting corners in a race.
Off road ITTs are sort of between the two though, so do they need to be entirely legal to be "officially" recognised?
As an extreme example (and just an example, I'm not proposing it), how about the Severn Way? 224 miles with large parts of it rough grass across riverside fields with no established worn path.

ITT fly just below the radar, so the less people you can upset and the less potential conflict, the easier everyones life is. A few hundred yards of footpath out in the middle of nowhere (and away from tourist / walkers areas) won't do any harm but sticking something like the path from Dolgellau up Cadair into a route is inviting trouble ... including something like that because you believe you should be able to ride on footpaths is ultimately cutting your nose off to spite your face (and everyone elses).

It's not really a matter of right and wrong, it just comes down to using a little common sense ... setting off to ride an ITT route on your own is a very different thing to having 50 - 100 people off at the same time. I think the rule should be, if in doubt keep off the footpaths (or ask the landowners permission)

[Richpips]

If I'm out on my own and it looks rideable, I'll ride it.

I'll ride some off piste stuff if I'm on my own or with a couple of mates.

Off road ITTs are sort of between the two though, so do they need to be entirely legal to be "officially" recognised?

If you are going to publish a route though for an ITT, it needs to be legal. ITTs have a set route, and for an official completion you need to follow the route exactly if you are going for a time. I read of someone going out to check that a rider didn't use a parallel road section on a SDW attempt.

Imo when designing an ITT, I'd also add that comsideration should be given to when certain fragile paths are ridden even if they are legal especially in the more popular areas. Eg there are parts of the Peak ITT which are rubbish to ride, and damaged further by the passage of bikes after normal amounts of rain in the winter. Though it's perfectly legal to ride a bike there I only do so when I know I can without fear of losing my front wheel ina deep puddle. That's not to say that such sections shouldn't be included. Relevant guidelines on the ITT webpage as to times of the year when these sections are at their best, or maybe with wet weather alternatives would be good.
If you look on http://www.highlandtrail.net/ you'll see under "About" and "Route Details" some things to consider before embarking on an attempt of that route.

So, legal yes, and with respect for the environment, land owners, and other users too, which will make ITTs sustainable.

[jameso]

ITT seems as if it can be different to self supported stuff. (edit to add, solo efforts are assumed here). A time trial is just that, could be just 6hrs of tech, whereas self supported comes in at any distance that would be highly unusual to manage w/o any sleep, say 48hrs. I know some do go longer than that but it becomes part of the tactics and need to support yourself around that sort of duration. TT also suggests the focus on speed but self-support can involve ethics and style that may or may not add overall time.

More specifically, as long as they're legal and considered a challenge by most riders a route seems like a goer for inclusion. Let future riders decide what appeals or motivates a fast attempt? Marks new ridgeway variant sounds like a great entry point route, for ex.

[Ray Young]

I'd like to see a route on the North York Moors, I'm sure there is plenty of scope.

[DoctorRad]

Just leaving this here... not the UK, but not that much further than Scotland from the south of England...

http://www.grande-traversee-alpes.com/e ... -du-soleil

[Chew]

I'd like to see a route on the North York Moors, I'm sure there is plenty of scope.

I think theres scope for something in most of the National Parks.

Routes should be something which shows of the best riding of the area and that 'normal' people would enjoy over a few days. It just becomes an ITT when someone decides to do it as fast as they can. Tour Divide, Transcambrian Way, etc...

Once you publish something there is some ownership involved.
If I point someone to a long route around the Dales I need to make sure its not going to get them into trouble (foot paths, farms) but also protects sensitive areas regardless of legalities.

Rule #1 of selfsupported/ITT's - Don't be a Dick
If everyone follows this things cant go wrong.

[VeganGraham]

I've been trying to compose a coherent reply to all the replies, but I can't, so here's a collection of thoughts. It makes sense to me.

I don't mix with other mountain bikers much because I prefer to go somewhere, not just ride round and round in circles at a trail centre.
I think of myself as an Off Road Roadie, or as someone else put it, I go Two Wheeled Rambling.
I live in the Wyre Forest, virtually an unofficial trail centre, and while other mountain bikers are loading their bikes on to their cars and driving to the forest, I'm riding my bike away from it in to the surrounding countryside.

There will never be a simple yes/no answer to the cycling on footpaths question. There are footpaths round here that I have been commuting on for years without meeting any walkers and there are bridleways on the Malverns that I wouldn't even try to ride on a summer weekend. Don't be a dick sums it up nicely.

I don't like the idea of out and back rides, I'd much rather do a loop. Even if I've got a destination, I prefer to return by a different route.

I've never used mountain bothies, but I understand they work on a system of responsibility and discretion.
Reading a thread about HONC on STW once, some of the locals mentioned that the official route didn't use the best trails, presumably because the organisers didn't want them wrecked by 1200 riders.
I know a lot of local footpaths that make good mountain bike trails. I'd be happy to share them with a few responsible users, mountain bothy style, but wouldn't want a 1200 rider event routed along them. I would guess that most riders could say the same for their local area.

I organise mountain bike orienteering events. If you enter one of my events around the Wyre Forest or Clee Hill, you can be sure that all the control points will be on good rideable bridleways and all the unrideable stuff will be marked on the map as out of bounds. I use my local knowledge and experience of getting stuck in bogs or tangled in brambles so visitors can stay on the best trails for a grand day out.

I prefer to ride from home. Apart from racing and orienteering events, I can't remember the last time I drove somewhere to ride my bike.

I've been looking at maps a lot recently, and to get to the proper adventurous areas from here, Clee Hill, Wenlock Edge, Long Mynd and beyond in to Wales, is impossible without a lot of road riding, even if it is mostly single track lanes.

There are lots of mountain bike route guides about, but they have to be 100% legal if they are published for the general public. If they were a bit more discreet, they could include the sensible cheeky stuff.


So, to summarise, maybe I'm looking at two different things;

Proper ITTs are best being fully legal and following an established marked trail.
They can start out as an overnighter, but sure enough, someone will soon go for the record.

There's room for a lot more unofficial off road routes in the UK using local riders knowledge to link up the best trails with the most tolerable roads.
I really don't know how best to collect or share this knowledge though.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Proper ITTs are best being fully legal and following an established marked trail.

This would be SDW double, WHW and Marks Ridgeway double, TCW etc

There's room for a lot more unofficial off road routes in the UK using local riders knowledge to link up the best trails with the most tolerable roads.

This would be HT560, Cairngorms Loop, EWE, BB200, etc

I see the real difference between those 2 groups is the inclusion of a grand depart.

[Chew]

The first thing I'd say is get out there and ride some of the existing published routes.

Riding a selection of those routes will give you an indication of what works and what doesn't. Riding for a number of days back to back, is very different from getting out there for several hours.

Also its easy to sit at home and plan a route, but the devil is in the detail. If I'm doing a group ride (Tdf bivi, Winter bivi) i'll always get out and ride parts of the route that I haven't ridden, just to check that they are viable (locked gates, angry farmers, tourist hotspots, etc..).

[Richpips]

I've never used mountain bothies, but I understand they work on a system of responsibility and discretion.

They have a website. Their wheresabouts are no longer for just those in the know.

I know a lot of local footpaths that make good mountain bike trails. I'd be happy to share them with a few responsible users, mountain bothy style, but wouldn't want a 1200 rider event routed along them. I would guess that most riders could say the same for their local area.

The problem is once the information gets out there, you'll get irresponsible users.

I prefer to ride from home. Apart from racing and orienteering events, I can't remember the last time I drove somewhere to ride my bike.

I've been looking at maps a lot recently, and to get to the proper adventurous areas from here, Clee Hill, Wenlock Edge, Long Mynd and beyond in to Wales, is impossible without a lot of road riding, even if it is mostly single track lanes.

Then you'll need to get in your car. It sounds like where you live is not the ideal start for an off road ITT.

There are lots of mountain bike route guides about, but they have to be 100% legal if they are published for the general public. If they were a bit more discreet, they could include the sensible cheeky stuff.

As above. Also, excluding single/double duplicates, there are 12 routes on selfsupported already. That's 2-3 years of riding over the summer if you did one most months. As Chew said, get out and ride those that are already on there. Without looking too hard on here you'll find others that are in the planning stage, which afaik are legal.

If you are planning on putting together an ITT for others to ride, and you are using FPs then you ought to look elsewhere to create your route.

[ScotRoutes]

"VeganGraham"why are there not more long rides listed?

Because most folk like to plan their own routes? Poring over maps and imagining what it'll be really like is half the fun.

[ScotRoutes]

I prefer to ride from home. Apart from racing and orienteering events, I can't remember the last time I drove somewhere to ride my bike.

I've been looking at maps a lot recently, and to get to the proper adventurous areas from here, Clee Hill, Wenlock Edge, Long Mynd and beyond in to Wales, is impossible without a lot of road riding, even if it is mostly single track lanes.

Then you'll need to get in your car. It sounds like where you live is not the ideal start for an off road ITT.

Or move house to somewhere better for riding