Other (associated) interests?

[Gari]

Wot he said^. Possibly including the WRT thing.... except I wouldn't be winning with 2 gps's!!!

[Bearbonesnorm]

I think for too many people it's not an aid, though, it genuinely is a substitute. Same as we see with mountain rescue incidents, people are getting dependent on technology and are totally crocked when it fails on them.

Completely agree ... and I don't think it ends with gps. I think anything that has the ability to fail should only ever be viewed as a back-up. I don't believe that means you should be carrying a spare of everything 'just in case' either. I believe you should be prepared to do without certain items and be able fall back on your skills and knowledge.

I don't disagree about it being more useful at higher distance or pace, but isn't the point of the exercise using your abilities and judgement to the best possible outcome? It'd that combination of legs and brains again - you ride at the pace you're able to navigate at, you stop to sleep when you can't work out which way round the map goes. You run within or as close to the edge of your own physical limits as you can, without technology compensating for your limitations.

I agree in part but I think it's a very hard line to draw ... should Ti frames be outlawed? Do suspension forks compensate for physical limits? Are 29" wheels cheating? My sleeping bag only weighs 500g so is that an unfair advantage over someone with a bag weighing 1.5kg? Should light output be restricted to stop people riding faster at night than others? All those things could be seen to offer an advantage to those who have them / use them. To a degree as soon as you get on a bike you've accepted that technology is now part of what you're doing (even a steel singlespeed is a technological marvel when compared to walking / running) and you pick and choose the bits that best suit your requirements

I'll back this up as well, so I don't come off as a keyboard hero. I'll enter the WRT this year, and I'll be doing it on maps alone. I won't 'win', I know. But I'll enjoy the view from my moral high-horse :)

The BB 200 would be a far better test. You really can't go wrong on the WRT ... even if you were blindfolded and mapless

[Chew]

I stand by my 'trail centre' comment - you're following an electronic trail rather than a set of markers, if it's a leisure ride you might as well be at a trail centre, if you're in a race/ITT, you might as well be at a long XC or marathon. It becomes a technology competition - who's got the best GPS, who's got the dyno hub to charge it - rather than a competition of body and brain. It favours those who can afford the best kit rather than those with the best combination of legs, lungs and mind.

If you grab a brew and sit down and plot a route on a GPS, its only the same as sitting down with a set of maps and highlighters. All you have done is pre-drawn your route on a map either physically or electronically. The notion that you just simply follow a route blind is false. You still have to read the map and navigate to where the next turning is, and still have the ability to change amend your route due to conditions/time/etc... The skills are broadly the same just technology makes things easier/quicker and with all developments in modern life.

A ITT is a long XC race. Its still a preset route, its just going to take you days to complete rather than hours. Its the same best combination of legs, lungs and mind, just maybe a different mix than what you may prefer.

I don't disagree about it being more useful at higher distance or pace, but isn't the point of the exercise using your abilities and judgement to the best possible outcome?

Personally its all about sh*ts and giggles. Getting out there, having fun and riding my bike

[Pyro]

If you grab a brew and sit down and plot a route on a GPS, its only the same as sitting down with a set of maps and highlighters. All you have done is pre-drawn your route on a map either physically or electronically. The notion that you just simply follow a route blind is false.

It's not the part about about sitting plotting a route that I disagree with, Chew - I love poring over maps, paper or computer, and trying to suss a route out. Yup, that's the same whether analogue or digital.

The issue is thus: You, with your GPS, have a device which can tell you at a glance exactly where the next turning is. You don't have to be constantly in-touch with the map, checking distances, counting off features, checking your computer to work out how far you've got to go. Your handy little device will even tell you exactly where things are, exactly when you've strayed off-route (assuming you've not done it deliberately), exactly when you've missed a turning. The notion that you 'follow it blind' isn't false at all - yes, you still interact with the route, choose alternates if the going is poor etc - but the truth is that, in the main, you have something doing your thinking for you.

That 'hands-off' element reduces the mental fatigue massively. All your brain has to do is listen for the beeps and turn right or left accordingly. Mine has to cope with the calculations of where I am, how far to go, where that turning is - all stuff the little arrow on your screen is doing for you - as well as telling my legs to turn the pedals and my arms to steer etc etc. It's the mental equivalent of you being able to draft me, while I do all the work on the front, into a headwind.

To a degree as soon as you get on a bike you've accepted that technology is now part of what you're doing (even a steel singlespeed is a technological marvel when compared to walking / running) and you pick and choose the bits that best suit your requirements

Yes, to a degree. But the comparison isn't on technologies like bikes which, unless I've stumbled onto the wrong forum, we would all have anyway. We're all riding bikes, so that's an unfair comparison. And mountain biking pretty much exemplifies the law of diminishing returns - you can spend monstrous amounts of cash on the lightest, shiniest bits you can get your hands on, but the physical benefit per unit mass and per unit cash dwindles at the upper end of the scale. Therefore, me on a £3500 super shiny all-singing all-dancing carbon wonderhorse is highly unlikely to do significantly better than me on a £1000 mid-range hardtail, because the limiting factor is my physical condition. I still have to pedal the damn thing. But in terms of GPS vs paper maps, I have to pedal and think, while you just have to pedal.

[Chew]

The issue is thus: You, with your GPS, have a device which can tell you at a glance exactly where the next turning is. You don't have to be constantly in-touch with the map, checking distances, counting off features, checking your computer to work out how far you've got to go. Your handy little device will even tell you exactly where things are, exactly when you've strayed off-route (assuming you've not done it deliberately), exactly when you've missed a turning. The notion that you 'follow it blind' isn't false at all - yes, you still interact with the route, choose alternates if the going is poor etc - but the truth is that, in the main, you have something doing your thinking for you.

That 'hands-off' element reduces the mental fatigue massively. All your brain has to do is listen for the beeps and turn right or left accordingly. Mine has to cope with the calculations of where I am, how far to go, where that turning is - all stuff the little arrow on your screen is doing for you - as well as telling my legs to turn the pedals and my arms to steer etc etc. It's the mental equivalent of you being able to draft me, while I do all the work on the front, into a headwind.

Agree with you totally that having to read a map uses more brain power than using a GPS. Some people may like to ride around using performing 100 calculations a second in there head, others may want to use some of that brain power to enjoy the views, look for wildlife, decide if should drink bitter/mild at the next pub stop or dream about Sarah from accounts (she is lush ) People just have different priorities.

I think i just disagree that one solution is superior to another

[Pyro]

I think i just disagree that one solution is superior to another

I didn't say it was :)

It just frustrates me. To me, being able to navigate for yourself - to follow the route, not just plot it onto a map or a computer - is an vaguely exciting, fun and integral part of being outdoors. Handing that over to a computer takes half the fun out of it for me. And it makes for a very wonky playing field in the competitive side of bikepacking.

others may want to use some of that brain power to enjoy the views, look for wildlife, decide if should drink bitter/mild at the next pub stop or dream about Sarah from accounts (she is lush )

I do that as well...

[Ian]

Blimey

What GPS do you have, Pyro, that bleeps to tell you when to make the next turn?
Mine doesn't do that... Or I don't think it does. If it did, would I be faster? Probably not. Would I be less tired after 18 hours of racing using a GPS over paper maps? I very much doubt it. Would I get lost more by using a paper map? No. Are GPS units prohibitively expensive? No.

I agree that GPS presents a different interface to paper, but I disagree with the implication that you don't need to engage your brain to use one and that those users have an unfair advantage over others choosing to use paper maps. There are only two things that separate the top riders for bikepacking racing, and neither of them are to do with having a GPS.

As an aside, if you wanted to talk about non-level playing fields in racing, attention should be directed at the use of smart phones and mobile internet to check on the position of other riders mid race, or being fed information from a third party.

Anyway, the other aspect that is overlooked here is the ability for the GPS to record, passively, the route you have ridden. It tells you how far you've climbed, how long you stopped for and many other things that I personally find interesting that a paper map doesn't do. I can also share my routes with friends, and experience rides that they have done, without either of us having to get our highlighters out, mark up a map and put it in the postbox for Postman Pat to deliver

[Pyro]

I haven't overlooked that Ian, I just haven't mentioned it. I have no problem with logging , I have a Cateye Stealth that does just that, and yip, it's interesting to see where I've been, look at my HR data, climb profiles etc. I'm only talking about the navigational aspect. If someone else wants to see my route, fine. I tend not to share them though, if someone wants to ride it they can go discover it for themselves.

I think you're wrong about how tired you'd feel after 18hrs of racing without maps, though of course I've no proof about hired you would feel. I know from adventure racing how different I feel over a long bike leg if I'm navigating or not, and it's notably different. When I'm not navving, I can switch off and just ride. We don't draft, and the navigator doesn't tend to be at the front, so it's not that..

As to what beeps, Google maps nav can, Viewranger can, and an old Magellan could. Can others not?

[jameso]

As an aside, if you wanted to talk about non-level playing fields in racing, attention should be directed at the use of smart phones and mobile internet to check on the position of other riders mid race, or being fed information from a third party.

'A nod and hear-hear from the back'

GPS is either an aid or a power-hungry distraction, but some events now are GPS only routes which is a shame. A vote for more ACA or audax-permanent style route cues from me, I think well-noted cues are a fair alternative to GPS and I just prefer the user experience. For an overnighter or a week or 2 away I like maps, a compass and taking any trail we like the look of that's roughly the right direction, ie no set route plan just an idea, or I'd be guided by someone who's happy using GPS.

Anyway, that aside I'm not sure I have other interests while out riding with bivi gear, just the things you like riding, scrambling, or any outdoor stuff for. If I listed the things I'd do on a 'packing trip when not riding I might sound like some sort of hippy, but being alone in the woods with a sleeping bag, cheap food, meths and often a can of lager or a hipflask is though of as something for bums and I'd rather be be considered a hippy than a bum! Just..
Taking pictures is enjoyable but I'm not a photographer as such, just recording things for the future.

I did a ride in the Peak District a few years ago where I rode an iO SS along the edges, stopped for some bouldering and soloed some easy routes, sat around doing nothing, rode on, repeat, back to the tent in the dark. That was a great ride, a spur of the moment thing after a photoshoot, since I was driving the van full of bikes and outdoor kit, why go back that afternoon when I could be back at 9am next day?

[Nick]

You really can't go wrong on the WRT ... even if you were blindfolded and mapless

Aah ha! Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the reason we were the last to finish the WRT last year:


Lost by GPS by nickgilling, on Flickr

This was with a mapping GPS, somehow we thought we were somewhere else and ended up heading way further south than we intended, before getting lost in a forest

A paper map would have been useful, if sodden rather quickly.

Main consequence was that there wasn't much cake left, but what was left was still good.

[Slacker]

All this talk of Gps's ,Sat Nav's, maps and compass's I think it's all cheating .
I always use the Stars to guide me
Always seem to end up in the pub so it seems to work perfect !

[mountainbaker]

There seems to be a lot of snobbery about whether or not you still use maps, or use a GPS for guidance. It's all a matter of personal preference, and also, relates to what kind of riding you are doing. If I'm at a relaxed pace, and have a few days to meander, maps, a rough idea of the route, and flexibility prevail.

However, if I'm trying to get from A to B, especially over distance, or I'm doing something like the BB200, GPS all the way. I ride long distances to visit mates for weekends, London, in one hit from here is 170 miles, took me 12.5 hours with a GPS, seriously, after 6000 calories burnt, I really couldn't be bothered getting out a paper AtoZ of London to navigate from Hampton to Brixton. So I planned it all ahead, bunged it on my Garmin. Next weekend I'm riding up to Cardiff and back for business meetings, 240 miles in a couple of days, I don't fancy navigating by guess work through the misery of the Somerset levels, so again, I've plotted a route in advance, which I have checked against the Environment Agency's own flood map of the area. Is that so wrong? No.

It's about practicality. Some people like to call that laziness, whatever, they're just too lazy to learn technology.

[durhambiker]

I'm kinda of the school of thought that I do these things in my spare time for enjoyment and pleasure. And I don't tend to force restrictions on how I'm able to enjoy myself. My preferred navigation method is neither maps nor GPS however. I tend to argue with the wife, give up and go the way she thinks it is, then 20 minutes later point out that I was, despite being a bloke, in fact right after all and we've been going the wrong way.

Anyhoo, onto associated interests, it's photography for me. Getting back into it at the moment, and putting some thinking into how to carry my DSLR and kit with me on trips. Wanting to give time lapse a go currently, and thinking combining that with bikepacking could be quite cool, although will involve having to carry my tripod too. But I fancy the thought of getting some nice Lake District sunset time lapse sequences

[nobby]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I do enjoy seeing wildlife myself. I'd mentioned in another post that my wife and daughter aren't the most confident riders and my daughters interest in mtbing has grown since I've shown her a variety of wildfire we can encounter (often taking a pic or vid if she isn't with me).

Just been ordering a few photgraphy bits for my father as he is planning for better weather!

Second the wildlife. Through seeing so much of it while out on a bike I went on a Mammal Society course and learnt to identify British Mammals and their sign. I can now be sure that the stoat I saw wasn't a weasel and tell a vole from a mouse - well, it cheers me up
I also look for man's impact on the landscape particularly if it has Romano British origins.

[FLV]

Anyone else like good old fashioned navigation? This year Im trying to do all my trips with maps and a compass without resorting to a GPS. I'm hopeless though and tend to take way longer to get anywhere complicated.

Yup. If all you're going to do is follow a breadcrumb trail, you may as well be at a trail centre. Sack off the GPS and enjoy the feeling of getting lost every now and again.

I can't say I agree with that.

me neither.

I can and often do navigate. Its slower of course (for me at least)
Sometimes I cant be arsed though. this morning I planned a route taking in a lot of riding I either havnt done before or havnt done for a long time one the computer whilst eating eggs and slurping coffee, it took 20 mins. I plugged in the gps, loaded the route, then basically followed the purple line.
I didnt spend much time staring at the purple line though, I enjoyed some lovely scenery, spun the pedals and basically emptied my head. I even deviated from the plan a few times when I spotted an interesting track.

It was excellent, I didnt feel like I was at a trail centre once all day. (not that I mind the odd spin round a trail centre)

[slarge]

I used to do a lot of Trailquesting, and got to the point where my on the move mapreading was getting quite good. Then I moved on to a bit of racing and then bikebacking and I have to say that my map reading skills are now quite mediocre - almost all my off the beaten track riding is GPS assisted - and I do find it frustrating that I am not able to see the context of where I am on a GPS screen, whereas on a map it is much easier as you can see a greater area. Having said that, I love the outdoors and the wildlife and scenery - there isn't a feeling like riding through an area watching the birds (especially a pair of barn owls hunting over a field - flying in squares over the whole field (until they saw me standing watching and flew off looking at me over their shoulders)) and stumbling across deer or badgers (my new rear wheel was bent by a deer strike a few years ago!!)

Aside from that my other interests are DIY - having an old house that is slowly nearing a fairly significant refurb takes a lot of time, a camper van conversion was a good little thing a few years ago, and now building a shepherds hut for the better half for her 50th in a couple of years - I have the oak chassis nearly done. And any spare time is spent away in the camper with OH and one of the dogs - walking and chilling.

Work just gets in the way!

[Farawayvisions]

Well, I enjoy eating, sailing and drinking tea. I'm a lover of wildlife and am a happy snapper, comfortable at both sides of the lens. I'm fond of lighthouses, windmills and archaeology. I like a good chat and love to hear people's stories.

[danielgroves]

I've been into photography for quite a while not, and recently started a section on my website essentially dedicated to photography and bike trips as a result, so I guess you could throw photography and blogging out there.

[Solo]

Sorry if my topic got the pro / anti GPS debate going!

I've enjoyed the info about what captures the attention.

Don't think my son will ever forget the ride last summer when we heard something charging through the bushes and then a doe deer ran out, passing between us. The shock came when she was closely followed by a huge buck! His antlers made my wide bar / bar ends look like a toy!

[durhambiker]

Ah, how could I forget, drinking tea! Last trip me and the wife went on we spent several hours sat in the sun drinking loads of tea and getting sunburnt. Brilliant way to spend warmer weekends. Good job as well as getting paid I get free tea from work, more than I can ever work my way through each month

[mountainbaker]

I just got some binoculars (nice and compact) and an RSPB bird book for my birthday the other day. Best present for years I think! Going to take binoculars on longer rides, just great to get to the top of a big hill and look back down with them. Friday riding up to Wales, I'm going to ride across the somerset levels (between the flooding) and up the mendips, will be interesting to look back down at the flooding from there.

[TheBrownDog]

It just occurred to me that Ive got a very nice fly fishing rod up in the loft which Ive not used for a couple of years. A mate gave it to me when he took his family to live in Colorado - I gave him a bike to get fit. He gave me the rod to help me de-stress … Anyways, Im thinking I might drag it down and see if I can fit it to my bike. Typically though the course fishing season closes today and I'll be limited to canals and still water, but it's a lovely way to spend a couple of hours if you're not in a hurry.

[GilesRene]

My dad's a big birdwatcher - despite finding it all really borring annoying (him stopping every five minutes to identify a bird song) alot of it has actually rubbed off. When i go out with him therefore I usually have my own pair of binoculars and my little twitcher book. But then a lot of my mates are keen photographers, so when I am with them I tend to take a lot of pictures.