CO2 impact of bikepacking travel or an event

[Bearlegged]

a graduate student at MIT, recently estimated that manufacturing an average bicycle results in the emission of approximately 530 pounds of greenhouse gases

Fucksake, MIT grads working in non-SI units? We deserve extinction as a species.

[PaulB2]

a graduate student at MIT, recently estimated that manufacturing an average bicycle results in the emission of approximately 530 pounds of greenhouse gases

Fucksake, MIT grads working in non-SI units? We deserve extinction as a species.

If Rees-Mogg has his way we'll be joining the USA and Liberia, not that we ever really stopped.

[faustus]

This debate reminded me of things I read for my thesis quite a while ago on various approaches to environmentalism. It very much strikes me that CO2 accounting and trading, and more broadly some approaches to 'greening' the economy are from the 'Cornucopia' way of thinking. Broadly that capitalism and market forces will provide solutions to environmental and resource problems. Swapping to electric cars, zero-carbon flying etc. etc., all of those things are ways to feel like you're part of a solution but are just side-stepping.

All plants and animals have a resource and environmental footprint, and it's patently obvious that the human species needs to dramatically reduce that footprint by reducing its activity - and that goes beyond incremental 'behaviour change', it has to be everyone doing a lot less. That's not really part of everyday environmental discussion.

Anyway, back off tangent...Yep, much less flying to bikepacking events. There's a particular irony to people attending the TD by long haul flight, to ride around forest fires that are exacerbated by climate deteriorating activities like flying. If it means fewer bikepacking superstars on world tour, that's fine.

[jameso]

^ Yeah, TD was my one real long haul flight for a bike trip before I rethought all this. I hope I don't come across as critical of those who still do similar. There's more to a rider's lifestyle impact than a flight for a ride.
That's related to this line of thought. I didn't go to the TNR this year as the only way to get there in the time I had was to fly. But I said it was down to a bad back issue, which was largely true - climbing for extended periods has been painful this summer. But in August I rode 6 hilly days in Wales, so perhaps I could have handled the Alps. Truth is I wasn't sure how to address my thoughts on flying in relation to an event where 70% of the riders flew to get there. "It's just one event / destination" etc. But the odd mention of alternative ways to get there isn't going to change much.
That's why I think the page I linked to in the OP is good, it's clear what makes the greatest impact but it's not annoying preaching from the recently converted or being hypocritical.

[In Reverse]

Fucksake, MIT grads working in non-SI units? We deserve extinction as a species.

Probably studied some humanities nonsense.

[Bearlegged]

[PaulB2]

To muddy the waters, anthropology is an ology that's either a humanistic science or a scientific humanity depending on your point of view. A US graduate probably wouldn't use SI units though.

[stevenshand]

I've flown twice this year and I debated it for a long time. One was a family holiday and I didn't beat myself up about it too much but the other trip played heavily on my mind.

I'm in a fortunate position to be able to seek out offset schemes and pay for them but it feels 'dirty'. As others have said, even if offset schemes work (environmentally I mean) it just means an even bigger divide when it comes to people that can afford to travel and those that can't. I don't like that at all.

I do struggle to come to terms with the 'adventure' industry and the promotion of seeking out recreation in far-flung places. I guess even TNR fits into this but at least I know it's something that you've given consideration to James. Also, it is a destination that you can get to practically without flying. AMR and SRMR are a whole other kettle of fish.

My Instagram feed is full of imagery tempting me to these exotic locations for recreation. Photo's taken by people that have flown there to take pics and encourage/inspire/motivate others to do the same. Some of these people are my friends and it's how they pay the bills, it makes me feel uncomfortable.

[Bearbonesnorm]

do struggle to come to terms with the 'adventure' industry and the promotion of seeking out recreation in far-flung places. .

Me too which sometimes makes me feel like a hypocrite - that's more of an 'in general' than a specific jetting off to far flung destinations though. I usually try to ease the inner turmoil by doing what I can with regard to spreading the LNT message and best practice generally but sometimes I still get an urge to walk away.

[voodoo_simon]

Ignorant question/observation coming up (it’s never stopped me before…)


Most of the carbon off setting programmes I’ve seen seem to focus on planting trees, in fact, all carbon off setting programmes that I remember seeing involve planting trees* Is that really the solution to off set carbon emissions?** It doesn’t seem the best solution for the environment as a whole though, as locally trees are getting cut down in places to allow more sunlight through, to encourage the growth of the brush and this in turn allows the wildlife to return.

Seems to be working too from what I can see, certainly seems there’s more bird life in this thinned out areas and we know if there’s more bird life, those creatures lower in the food must be thriving too.

Maybe I’m confused but it seems planting trees isn’t really the solution for the environment


*someone is bound to come along and show my 100s of other examples
**obviously not flying/driving in the first place is better

[Bearbonesnorm]

Simon, I've kind of come to the conclusion that most stuff is simply bollox.

The last lot of felling in the forest here netted (as I recall) thousands of tonnes of wood, most if not all of which was sent for burning to produce electricity. That is enough to make me believe my first statement is true.

[In Reverse]

I think most "tree planting" schemes these days will be leaning heavily into rewilding. Any areas I've been involved in at work recently seem to have more preparation and oversight than the nearby structure/whatever I've been working.

This charity do some good (and interesting) work if that's your thing. Lady in charge was a high-flier (lol) at Skyscanner so kind of relevant to the thread...

https://www.rewildingbritain.org.uk/rew ... art-fields

[tobasco]

you need 6 Billion other people to do the same.

Keep up at the back, 8 billion before year is out
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

[faustus]

Simon, I've kind of come to the conclusion that most stuff is simply bollox.

The last lot of felling in the forest here netted (as I recall) thousands of tonnes of wood, most if not all of which was sent for burning to produce electricity. That is enough to make me believe my first statement is true.

Crap though it is, at least it came from the UK. Drax power station in Yorkshire predominantly burns wood pellets shipped from western Canada, from deforestation there. But yeah, first statement true!

[javatime]

A coupe of links that may help...

Whilst European train travel with a bike is tricky, mainly getting out of the UK with it, I always find that the Man in Seat 61 provides guidance and inspiration :

https://www.seat61.com/ and after you have negotiated the Eurostar melee at St Pancras those German ICE trains are fast

Also jameso's link to sailing across the channel with your bike :

https://saillink.co.uk/ although this is a crowd funded format and you do gamble your cheap advance ticket on the service actually running in Spring 2023, but I will hedge my bets with an advance single.

[fatbikephil]

I think most "tree planting" schemes these days will be leaning heavily into rewilding. Any areas I've been involved in at work recently seem to have more preparation and oversight than the nearby structure/whatever I've been working.

This charity do some good (and interesting) work if that's your thing. Lady in charge was a high-flier (lol) at Skyscanner so kind of relevant to the thread...

https://www.rewildingbritain.org.uk/rew ... art-fields

That lot are a good bunch so worth supporting.... But an awful lot of Carbon offset schemes seem to involve planting acres of Sitka - sound familiar? It may be that companies genuinely think this is a good thing, much like all the people who invested in the massive sitka planting schemes in the '70's. But as Stu says, it's all bollox. Sitka plantations have a reasonably good Co2 capture capacity in the first ten years but thereafter it tails off. Round here a lot of farmers are offering their land to these schemes (there is a big cash incentive) so lots of nice grazed grassland is being converted to sitka planting. Grazed grassland has a much bigger capacity to absorb C02 over 20-50 years and it also offers much more in terms of biodiversity. CO2 emmissions are only part of the pictuer of things to sort but that's where all the focus is as it's more tangible than number of hedgehogs per acre or some other biodiversity measure. The final spoke in the scam is that I strongly suspect that after 20 years all these plantations will then get felled for more income and then burned in a power station, so you wipe out the CO2 capture and render the whole thing valueless in terms of the environment, but a huge cash cow for business.....

I don't fly these days as it's such a PIA, as much as it's wrecking the atmosphere; but rather than pay into carbon offset schemes, I'm in a local conservation group who do woodland management, habitat improvement and re-wilding stuff. We also get to have fires (burning nasty, evil sitka brash) and drink beer

[faustus]

Would second the use of Man in Seat 61, really useful for negotiating the logistics.

My brother and I went to the Alps with our road bikes in 2013 using the train to Grenoble. It was definitely a faff making connections and it adds a bit of stress, but the journey itself was very pleasant and surprisingly quick, especially TGV Paris to Lyon non-stop in 3 hours and then a short bit to Grenoble. Probably cost more than flights (not too much) but was a better trip. It's pretty amazing how far you can get by train in a reasonable amount of time - you do just need to account for extra days of travel.

[JackT]

Eurostar's no bike policy (folders excepted) is unfortunately still in place.

The venerable Bike Express coach company is still going, and looking to relaunch post-covid in 2023. Pickup points between York to Dover and services to different corners of France. https://www.bike-express.co.uk

[jameso]

Would second the use of Man in Seat 61, really useful for negotiating the logistics.

My brother and I went to the Alps with our road bikes in 2013 using the train to Grenoble. It was definitely a faff making connections and it adds a bit of stress, but the journey itself was very pleasant and surprisingly quick, especially TGV Paris to Lyon non-stop in 3 hours and then a short bit to Grenoble. Probably cost more than flights (not too much) but was a better trip. It's pretty amazing how far you can get by train in a reasonable amount of time - you do just need to account for extra days of travel.

We did a climbing trip to the Ecrins this way, really enjoyed it, as I always do when taking the train. It's a shame travelling with a bike by train is harder than travelling with ropes and lethal looking axe-like things.

European Bike Express is a great service. Genuinely stress-free bike transport the few times I've used it, it always felt it was good value. Last time I used it to get home after the TNR, a 1 way ticket from Orange. From Nice area across the Luberon, last bivi somewhere past Sault for a ride over Mt Ventoux early the next morning then through the Gigondas area. Got to Orange, had a late lunch and a large bottle of Belgian beer, loaded the bike on the coach when it arrived soon after and slept until somewhere near Paris. Got off the coach the next morning about 30 miles from home. So easy, travelling in style

[In Reverse]

an awful lot of Carbon offset schemes seem to involve planting acres of Sitka - sound familiar?

Some interesting writing on it in here today https://www.ft.com/content/40f5024b-c3a ... d6bd2ed2c4

Plenty of landscapes and locations that will be familiar to many Boners in there.

Can probably sort a C&P if anyone's paywalled.