Popping pill - TD related (or not)

[Alpinum]

Since I don't want to spoil the TD thread.

The term 'ultra endurance' gets banded about a lot in self supported racing, overused I think. 14 days or more is at that level though. At that duration it's a race of attrition and strong/illegal stimulants just accelerate your energy use, they don't create it for that sort of time. It might power you through 3-5 days but not 14.

We have meds to keep people alive which would otherwise die.
Ones used in casualty but also ones used to help HIV positiv persons and such with cancer be able to carry on with life and obvs. many more.
You can't imagine just how many drugs I can think of which would help during a hard effort of 14 day or more. And I hardly have a clue.

I don't think the the TD or any other similar bike event is as 'clean' (innocent might be the better word) as many like to think.
Yeah, Sofiane once said so (the front runners don't do drugs) during an interview. Said any positive tested athlete

Don't know and I suppose I'm just thinking out loud but personally, I wouldn't feel 'cheated' because I'd be out there for me ... perhaps it's just the spectators who are upset?

Indeed. I've been in such "races" and couldn't be bothered less. Despite those around my position in the field weren't always playing by the rules. They have to live with it and may have a different approach to being honest to oneself.
Yet, I don't think it's solely the spectators that remain bothered. Participants (competitors) have always pointed at each other.

Hermann Buhl is celebrated. Especially by Reinhold Messner.
He (Buhl) took Metamphetamine (Pervitin) on Nanga Parbat. He was honest about it.
Here's where I see the main issue.

We all just need to be more f*cking honest. Most of all to ourselves.

[lune ranger]

If drugs aren’t banned on TD or other ITT (they aren’t are they?) then where does the honesty part come in? Competitors are no more required to say how many tramadol or how much ephedrine, salbutamol, synacthen etc they take than they are required to say how many hours of training they did. Are they?
I suppose if a competitor was asked a direct question and failed to answer that’s a bit different.
The rules are clearly being gamed by riders in terms of other support - social media etc, other ‘marginal gains’ are probably being exploited as well.
This doesn’t take away from the fact that lots of folk are out on course riding their own ride, challenging themselves and having a great time.

[jameso]

I'm not a doctor, my point was just that amphetamines or similar may do as much harm as anything else over that sort of period, you're burning the candle at both ends. Climbers, ravers etc - 48hrs, maybe 3 days? 2 weeks is a long time to be juggling that sort of high/low while racing. Maybe you have a bit to get you through the last 500 miles, who knows. There's no testing so it's wide open to abuse or speculation.

[woodsmith]

As these type of events aren't yet governed by the dead hand of the UCI thankfully, then unless the rules for individual races actually have list of banned substances then its open season for the riders and nobody is breaking the rules. Without regular doping controls then there's little point in banning the use of drugs. At least this way nobody is "cheating" and its down to the the concience of the individual if they ride "clean" and what indeed "clean" means to them.

[Lazarus]

Given endurance cycling long tradition of drug misuse it would be astounding if they only clean area of long distance cycling was ITT with no checks. However as to how widespread we are simply guessing,

Granted it might not be lines of speed every day but I am sure, if you cared to look into it, you could see what would work even if it was just prescription pain killers and testosterone pills
The Grand tours guys certainly worked out how to improve performance over a month so it would seem possible to do it for 14 days [and most events are considerably shorter than that .
EPO at a sportive for example

https://www.sportive.com/cycling/538129 ... o-new-york

Unfortunately no area of cycling is clean of drug use/abuse - though down hillers are probably just stoned.

[riderdown]

At least this way nobody is "cheating" and its down to the the concience of the individual if they ride "clean" and what indeed "clean" means to them.

It's when it becomes habituated and what you need to do to be successful then it becomes a problem. Not many pro cyclists resisted the pressure to dope because they saw those that did resist ostracized and unable to keep up.

Risk is then that it becomes like steroids at the gym and the average person thinks it's just what you do if you are going on an endurance ride.

[tobasco]

Is the use of pharma aids directly proportional to the amount of money/sponsorship in a sport I wonder. Money in sport often seems to provide the incentive to win no matter the means.

Personally, I’m in awe of what some of these folk are capable of at the pointy end, drugs or no drugs, but I have (more) huge amounts of respect for the folk who are just ‘normal’ cyclists in it for themselves.

[fatbikephil]

I think there used to be a 'Nothing required, nothing prohibited' (not quite sure of the wording) rule in the ITT rules which referred to kit rather than pharmaceuticals. I note this has now disappeared maybe after the 2019 HT? The view after that year was that non-prescription performance enhancing drugs were covered by the 'no external support' rule. As Alpinum says, it's about honesty but the problem is that the 'Win at all costs' types don't necessarily care about honesty, as long as they win. Sponsored riders have an additional pressure but it seems that amateurs are just as likely to dope as pros. Funnily enough I've just read a piece on the office intranet about how to deal with narcissism, machiaveilianism and physcopathy in the workplace (!) and such personality traits entirely explain use of banned substances in sport...

If we all just did these routes for the challenge and adventure, the time being nothing but a marker / record for personal info, none of this would be an issue.

[Johnallan]

I'd like to see a race with unlimited drug use, a bit like Fear and Loathing but with push irons. I cant see many records being broken but it'd make social media interesting for a while

[Lazarus]

I've just read a piece on the office intranet about how to deal with narcissism, machiaveilianism and physcopathy in the workplace

So you work directly with the PM then

[fatbikephil]

I've just read a piece on the office intranet about how to deal with narcissism, machiaveilianism and physcopathy in the workplace

So you work directly with the PM then

he's not the only one, believe me!

[lune ranger]

Is the use of pharma aids directly proportional to the amount of money/sponsorship in a sport I wonder. Money in sport often seems to provide the incentive to win no matter the means.

In all walks of life and all fields of endeavour, just beating the next guy is enough incentive to win no matter what the means for some.

[Lazarus]

the first [ dodgy botle passed to a rider] and second Tour de France [ towed behind a car] events had cheating - I doubt there was much money to be won
The reality is when you ask humans to do super human feats, on bikes, they tend to cheat to win

The lack of any form of doping control would seem to be unlikely to deter this even though the rewards may be less obvious for a "win" than the TdF
I hope they dont cheat but life has taught me cyclists almost always cheat and have for decades , perhaps "amateurs" are better but who knows

[tobasco]

In all walks of life and all fields of endeavour, just beating the next guy is enough incentive to win no matter what the means for some.

So the issue comes down to some people being able to look at themselves in the mirror without guilt or shame, knowing that they cheated themselves. Maybe two classes would help, clean and anything goes.

[ScotRoutes]

Assuming the clean race was slower, folk would still cheat and lie.

[errol]

Unfortunately no area of cycling is clean of drug use/abuse - though down hillers are probably just stoned.

I do downhill and not sure I quite agree with the statement, its a bit unfair, even meant in jest, the folk who do this are some of the most focused and dedicated to their chosen discipline, you cant mess around!!

The Redbull hardline at DBP is tough enough let alone with a hangover!!

However there is no denying per the previous posts that doping of some form is prevalent in all types of 2 wheeled sport. Heaven forbid if the ultras come under the UCI umbrella.

[Bearbonesnorm]

After reading the post from top to bottom and thinking about the TD post, one thing struck me and that's .... does it really matter?

Using Steve as an example ... he's riding the TD at present and I'm 99.99% certain he's not consuming anything we might class as 'drugs' or 'performance enhancing substances' beyond coffee and sugar. He's putting up a cracking ride and from what i can tell sitting 2,000 miles away, he seems to be enjoying it and also seems to have fully entered into the spirit of the event.

When he returns home in a couple of weeks time, his mind will be crammed full of memories and stories that will last the remainder of his life. Now, had someone else out there consumed some PES, would that have an adverse effect on what Steve's done / seen / etc? I don't think so, Steve's achievement isn't deminished (maybe it's even increased?) by the behaviour of someone else. Should someone wish to whizz their t1ts off for 2800 miles in the hope they might proclaim themselves 'winner' then (a) crack on and (b) I pity you and your shallowness.

[Lazarus]

does it really matter?

Why do ITT [or BB events for that matter] have rules if it does not matter if they are stuck to?

Now i agree it does not diminish others efforts if folk cheat, but ,yes cheating is wrong and it matters.
Am i going to lose sleep about it and worry endlessly no but cheating is never OK

[Bearbonesnorm]

Why do ITT [or BB events for that matter] have rules if it does not matter if they are stuck to?

Partly rider safety and also, to instill and maintain a 'self-supported' ethos.

but cheating is never OK

Have we not decided that it's not cheating as there are no specific rules governing it and it's simply a 'moral obligation'?

[fatbikephil]

I think you've hit the nail on the head Stu
For those who know, getting in first or second or whatever is secondary (or may not feature at all) to doing the route and having a good time with plenty of challenge to brag about (and getting to ride some ace trails!)

The racer types who are innit to win it are maybe missing out a bit on this? Although Huw Olivers writings suggest he gets the adventure / fun part as much as being able to go quick round a route and end up with the fastest time.

And in this context 'moral obligations' and 'entering into the spirit of it' really do count as the whole thing, even the explicit rules are easily bypassed. it's just an ethos that should be pushed in the hope that a few waverers will be swayed away from outright cheating accepting there will always be a few dicks.

That said when a group of you stay in a hotel on, say, the fifth night of a well known ITT and make a pact to get up and leave at the same time, it's a bit off when one of them sneaks out 5 minutes early

[sean_iow]

Have we not decided that it's not cheating as there are no specific rules governing it and it's simply a 'moral obligation'?

The HT550 now specifically mentions PEDs I think. Don't the standard ITT rules say to obey the laws of the land? Which covers having most of the PEDs as things like Tramadol need a prescription as do steroids etc. So it's more than just a moral obligation.

If we use Steve as an example again, if it turned out that everyone in front of him was cheating in some way (not saying they are) then he would have won the TD* so then it does matter if people cheat.

*You'd have to make him a special badge to commemorate it

[Bearbonesnorm]

If we use Steve as an example again, if it turned out that everyone in front of him was cheating in some way (not saying they are) then he would have won the TD* so then it does matter if people cheat.

I'm not sure it does. In my mind (what a scary place that is) in an ITT it doesn't really matter if some people finish in front of me or behind me. I'm racing a clock and myself not other individuals. Knowing that I'd gone out there and given it my absolute all and done so in a manner that I can easily live with, would be both my focus and reward.

[Lazarus]

Stu some people really are trying to win it and I assume if they ride clean and the person[s] in front does not they will feel cheated by this. Huw for example was racing to win the HT550 , I assume SS is as well in the US.

Have we not decided that it's not cheating

If we did i missed it and still disagree. I would assume performance enhancing [illegal ]drugs would constitute outside assistance just as much as being towed by a car would be

[Bearbonesnorm]

Stu some people really are trying to win it and I assume if they ride clean and the person[s] in front does not they will feel cheated by this. Huw for example was racing to win the HT550 , I assume SS is as well in the US.

Yep, I do get that there are those with a highly competitive nature or for whom a good result might actually put food on the table, so perhaps my 'does it really matter' comment should read 'does it really matter to 90% of us'.

[Lazarus]

In that case no it does not matter as most of us wont ever challenge the pointy end of the " race"

Like everyone on here I assume we would all rather complete it slowly than cheat and be faster