"human litter" on Snowdon

[barney]

Not sure why people are going to the trouble of using a cup?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-61128854

[fatbikephil]

Ben Nevis is the same round the half way lochan.... Dunno why folk don't go before they start!

[Rob S]

Probably the same people who put their dog's sh1t in a plastic bag and then leave the bag on a wall for someone else to carry out.

[jameso]

"There were no toilets at either the top or bottom of the mountain, there should be some toilets open because it's a busy mountain"
says a guide making money taking people up Snowdon.

FFS it's a mountain not a theme park (supposedly)

How many times have I been up down round that area in general etc, I don't know. How many times did I need a crap half way round? None. And I've been up there early am with a coffee, prime time for it.. Maybe that's because I didn't think there was going to be a toilet open because it's a mountain not a theme park

[Bearbonesnorm]

FFS it's a mountain not a theme park (supposedly)

In many peoples eyes, the GOD is a theme park and they expect the facilities that go with them. Sometimes I'm genuinely ashamed that I've spent the last 15 years encouraging people to venture into the outdoors. That thought isn't a reflection on anyone here, simply that I hate the thought that I may have caused some harm along the way. Education plays a big part but sometimes you just can't educate the stupid, selfish, entitled and lazy out of people ... and when you try, you're branded 'elitist'.

[RIP]

(supposedly)

Sadly James a theme park is now exactly what the old girl is . Probably has been since the railway was built. A bit like, say, Chatsworth is no longer a 'stately home'.

Guess that's why more discerning and adventurous types head for alternatives such as P******n and others which guard their charms more shyly.

One could argue that the whole of Snowdonia is one giant theme park these days..... ziplines, narrow gauge railways, Portmeirion, Antur Stiniog, slate mines.... and, just to set off another firework: a whole rash of second and holiday homes to go with it.....

Not that I'm implying it's acceptable to build a log cabin in a theme park either of course .

A very complex issue. Which will no doubt extend into one of those occasional BBB run-and-run threads that make This Place what it is .

[RIP]

Oh, "snap", Stu

[fatbikephil]

Don't know what the answer is now. The Scandi's drum it into their sprogs from an early age and it's become part of their whole society's ethos. Over here education seems to be still based around stats and performance so until there is some major philosophical change there I can't see anything improving any time soon as it will take a few generations before it really makes a difference. Annoyingly environmental / outdoor learning was touted as the answer to many potential problems that Access Rights might cause in Scotland and there was a hint that the 'Curriculum for Excellence' brought in at the same time might be a way of delivering this but it looks like it just became another buzz word for the three r's.... That was in 2005 so we'd be 17 years in if the government had really gone for it...

That article reads like many on the subject - the outdoor / environmental experts / elite moaning about the great unwashed not behaving properly in the hills. It would have been a great opportunity for the Beeb to make it inclusive - 'these are our hills and we need to look after them' style of thing but naturally they have angled it to a moan about scumbags. Someone who may have felt that dropping your keks at the side of a busy path is fine isn't likely to read that and think 'I need to change my behaviour and respect my environment' they are more likely to think 'next time be more circumspect...'

[Bearbonesnorm]

It would have been a great opportunity for the Beeb to make it inclusive

I'm really not sure about the idea of 'inclusive' because it often feels that striving and encouraging it, can lead us directly to situations similar to these ... not everyone deserves everything and not everyone has the ability to grasp simple concepts of behaviour. We have in many ways become a society of bucket list tickers and I imagine that many people who climb Snowdon, do the 3 Peaks, etc have no real interest in the actual activity beyond the here and now. Do it, shout about it and move on to the next thing ... there's no return visit, so what's left in their wake is of little concern.

I'm off to order a T shirt with 'Elitist F*cker' on

[RIP]

I'm off to order a T shirt with 'Elitist F*cker' on

Er, could you order a couple of extras, I've got a, erm, friend who fancies one .

But I don't think this is a thread about elitism or access (done that one a while ago), but maybe more about 'facilities' that should/could/shouldn't/couldn't be provided once people are actually at a location?

I've visited the toilet museum at Gladstone Pottery Museum in Stoke several times - it's flipping brilliant. It's obviously a tourist attraction, possibly even a theme park. I wonder if they should remove all the toilets from it? Getting a bit tangled up in knots now as usual , so I'm going to return to changing the rear gear gable on my WRT bike instead

[fatbikephil]

Maybe that was the wrong word....
An article like that on the beeb would likely draw the attention of the 'challenge' types (whereas the John Muir Trust e newsletter won't) so if the article was couched more as an indicator that some idiots do stuff like this but of course the rest of us who respect the countryside don't then it's more likely that people would think "yes I'm one of those who respect the countryside so I won't do that" Instead the hand wringing tone will just mean that most will stop reading after the first couple of lines. Obviously the true idiots won't care but in general this group (which is a lot smaller than people think) are pretty much a lost cause. Whereas the majority of people who are climbing snowdon etc. probably are open to engagement and some key messages on what to do / what not to do.

It's something I ran into a lot in my road safety days (a pune) - all of the public / press focus was on the minority of idiots who generally weren't influenced by typical education campaigns or engineering stuff. Our focus was on the majority of people who are open to influence and sensible measures on the road; who also represented the bulk of casualties so therefore needed the most attention. It worked too!

Current job also involves lots of consultation and engagement so I've been getting back up to speed on it. Same thing - there is a middle third of people who are open to the right messages put out in the right way. At either end of this group people don't pay attention - one lot because they are already doing the 'right thing' and the other because they don't care.

Yer not elitist Stu and you probably influenced a lot of people to get out and treat the countryside with respect

[riderdown]

Humans poo, sometimes they can hold on sometimes they can't or can't be bothered to try.

Some will be discrete, others not. I imagine the "not"s are the same people who think "stick and flick" is ok for what their dog does

[Bearbonesnorm]

"stick and flick"

In many places (inc FC land) that's actually the recommended practice. Often far better than sticking it in a bag that prevents the contents from breaking down.

Yer not elitist Stu

Cancels T shirt order.

[jameso]

(supposedly)

Sadly James a theme park is now exactly what the old girl is . Probably has been since the railway was built. A bit like, say, Chatsworth is no longer a 'stately home'.
...

Yeah I accept that and agree, and there's grades between wild and brought down to theme park status as Snowdon has been. It's why we generally went up there in winter.
Accessible to all for enjoyment vs left wild and natural for the few is a big topic but I believe those who make the effort somewhere a bit wilder are rewarded and learn, and those who never do miss out. I'm not convinced that lowering the bar to entry too far helps, ie instead of a railway why not just a lower peak or an easier hike? But that assumes a will to learn from the outdoors and ignores the pull of Snowdon being the highest in Wales. Snowdon is vital tourism income for the area like the Alps are.

you probably influenced a lot of people to get out and treat the countryside with respect

Agreed. I've learned a few things in that area from your input and your take on things.

[Rob S]

Balancing tourism in the 'honeypot' areas is always going to be tricky. Granted this shouldn't be necessary, but maybe they need a sign at the bottom reminding people that there isn't any facilities on the mountain, also a reminder of the countryside code and LNT.

Won't work for everyone for the reasons FBP stated, may half the problem though.

[woodsmith]

I'm impressed that some people's aim is good enough to hit a paper cup. I can only assume these are " venti" as " grande" isn't going to do the trick.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I'm impressed that some people's aim is good enough to hit a paper cup.

I did wonder whether someone else held it for them?

but maybe they need a sign at the bottom reminding people that there isn't any facilities on the mountain, also a reminder of the countryside code and LNT.

I think there are signs with GR on at different locations to help those with limited map skills dotted over the mountain, so I'm sure an addition wouldn't hurt.

[riderdown]

In many places (inc FC land) that's actually the recommended practice. Often far better than sticking it in a bag that prevents the contents from breaking down.

It's because they don't want the hassle and cost of collecting

Forestry England have a "bag and bin policy" as do Natural Resources Wales

https://www.forestryengland.uk/dog-code
https://naturalresources.wales/permits- ... 8090000000


There's an academic study somewhere that shows popular nature spots have soil phosphate levels higher than what farmers are allowed to fertilize to on the richest farmland

Plus it's all a bit American werewolf, "don't stray from the path" because either side is full of poo

[UnderTheRadars]

You took it up with you so you can take it down with you, no excuses. (You’ve seen my pooping thread, if I can take it so can everyone else!)

There’s a Costa coffee cup shitterer that likes to leave their cups in the woodland estate I work on. Twunts

[Mike]

More to the point why would u pay someone to walk you up the llanberis path

[Bearbonesnorm]

Forestry England have a "bag and bin policy" as do Natural Resources Wales

Uhm, plenty of signs in NRW forests asking people to 'stick and flick' rather than bagging - not arguing, just saying.

[tobasco]

Restricted entry to national park, entry dependent on demonstrating an understanding of and being prepared for LNT. No motorised vehicles. Anyone caught littering or breaking LNT gets to spend some of their time picking up litter.

[riderdown]

Uhm, plenty of signs in NRW forests asking people to 'stick and flick' rather than bagging - not arguing, just saying

No argument from me

Stick and flick has been progressively dismantled as an appropriate policy, it just allows people to use spaces as dog toilets without regard to the consequences. People with trail hounds don't even bother with the stick based on my first hand observations

As for NRW, local staff don't want to manage the costs or the hassles ( the inevitable poo bags in trees). The usual issue of national policies not coming with a budget

[Bearbonesnorm]

Restricted entry to national park, entry dependent on demonstrating an understanding of and being prepared for LNT. No motorised vehicles. Anyone caught littering or breaking LNT gets to spend some of their time picking up litter.

I do like your thinking but I also wonder whether any NP only regulations would simply move any issues outside the NP.

[fatbikephil]

Restricted entry to national park, entry dependent on demonstrating an understanding of and being prepared for LNT. No motorised vehicles. Anyone caught littering or breaking LNT gets to spend some of their time picking up litter.

I do like your thinking but I also wonder whether any NP only regulations would simply move any issues outside the NP.

Yup. Loch Lomond and Trossachs NP introduced camping bans alongside various lochs on their patch = 'campers' moved onto non NP lochs so the Council then had to do the same = more displacement...