Calder Divide Trail

[ledburner]

Just had a quick look at some of the route and it uses a fair bit of footpath. If people want to devise routes for their own use that use footpaths then thats down to them but to publish a route and organise an event on it, regardless of how worthy the charity, is in my oppinion uterlly irresponsable.

a lot of good tracks seem to only have foot path status, in kirklees. If they have consent them it may be acceptable. for the event. put it makes awkward in future...

edit: spelling correct misiing letters added, so new meaning & it makes more sense

[Bearbonesnorm]

Yeah, any type of event and you really do need to strive to not only make it 100% legal but also avoid the potential for conflict ... you may still find there's a certain amount but knowing it's legal gives you the high ground.

[Alpinum]

Yeah, let this turn into a 6 pages thread like the non legal bivy issue pointed out by one person on facebook thread.

I know you can do it.


Only this time, the roles are the other way round.

[Cheeky Monkey]

Says the booked who can write some pretty meaty / substantial posts on all.manner of subjects

Besides, all part of the eclectic charm innit!

[Bearbonesnorm]

Yeah, let this turn into a 6 pages thread like the non legal bivy issue pointed out by one person on facebook thread.

Yes lets ... then riders can have the potential of arsey conflict with various other users and Adrian can look forward to fraught communications with 'interested' parties ... yeah bring it on

[Alpinum]

Says the booked who can write some pretty meaty / substantial posts on all.manner of subjects

Besides, all part of the eclectic charm innit!

Should I have written "I know you can do it without me"?

[boxelder]

Sadly, these days we are in the realm of:
Cyclist injures walker on footpath; event with entry paid and route prescribed; organiser liable.
Looks a great idea and for a good cause.

[pistonbroke]

It's a fine line we tread between appearing to be a fun sponge and having a genuine concern for the organiser who may be blissfully unaware of the pitfalls of the rights of way legislation in England and Wales which are imo totally unfit for use. Reminds me of an off road duathlon I took part in about 15 years ago, again based in Kirkless. Most of the bike course was on bridleways and there was no doubt that the event was a race, mass start, timing gantry, prizes for the fastest etc etc. When I had the temerity to ask the organiser how they had managed to get around the legal issue of racing on bridleways I was met with a confused look followed by a load of abuse.

[outonmybike]

Looks good to me and for a very good cause!

Mostly very familiar trails as I'm placed somewhere in the middle of the circuit, within striking distance of the Overgate hospice in Elland. Although some of the flatter stuff east of Dewsbury will be new for me.

I'd like to make the mass start but it's a bit too far in the future to commit just yet.

Cheers for sorting it out

No problem. Its good to share the trails. Folk in Calderdale and beyond will know the Overgate Hospice. The target is to raise £2,000, enough to pay for the centre to be open for one day. Its in memory of a riding buddy Will Norman who had his last few days at the hospice. We might only have a dozen riders but we can aim higher.

The CDT itself is an epic! I've been riding in Calderdale for 25 years but had never gone beyond Mirfield as I stick to the Upper Calder Valley - Midgley Moor, Whirlaw Common etc. Heading into the east section of the lower Calder felt like a real adventure especially when I came across the Southern Washlands for the first time.

[outonmybike]

Just had a quick look at some of the route and it uses a fair bit of footpath. If people want to devise routes for their own use that use footpaths then thats down to them but to publish a route and organise an event on it, regardless of how worthy the charity, is in my oppinion uterlly irresponsable.

a lot of good tracks seem to only have foot path status, in kirklees. If they have consent them it may be acceptable. for the event. put it makes awkward in future...

edit: spelling correct misiing letters added, so new meaning & it makes more sense

Hi. To my knowledge none of the CDT is on footpath. The 80% that is off road is all bridleways and green ways. From Shelf down to Castleford there is the Sustrans route and that's got people on it but also horses and bikes. The eastern section from Castleford to Marsden is definitely legit cycling stuff with the towpath, the wheelers way, the bridleways through Coxley valley and the lovely old old trail along Cheese gate Nab. As for the western section that is all legit cycle trails. I wouldn't select a footpath. Walkers need there bit of space and many footpaths go through fragile habitats that don't need 100's of riders passing through.

Some sections might come up as not being bridleways but they are b/w's on the ground. When I was drawing the CDT route on 'Ride With GPS' all the mapping options showed Marsden Moor as a footpath but it isn't. The trail across the moor is an 18th century packhorse route. The bridge at the start is a classic packhorse piece of stone architecture.

There is one section of trail that IS down as a footpath but its 100% a lost green way and it sits between two other bridleways in the same valley and forms one long trail. When I've been on it I've meet horse riders so I trust them as well as trusting my map reading. But lie you say this was in Kirklees and not every designation is correct. If i was organised like Cycling UK id lodged a change of status. Maybe later in the year i do that.

If you have spotted a section that is a footpath and I've made an error then please let me know the location/grid refer and I've check it out.

Thanks
Adrian

[outonmybike]

Yeah, any type of event and you really do need to strive to not only make it 100% legal but also avoid the potential for conflict ... you may still find there's a certain amount but knowing it's legal gives you the high ground.

I'm 100% into making a trail legit and avoiding possible conflict with landowners. To my knowledge none of the CDT is on footpath. The 80% that is off road is all bridleways and green ways across a semi-wild landscape and traffic cycle paths along the urban fringe. On the western half of the CDT, from Queensbury down to Castleford the route uses trails that's got people on it but also horses and bikes. Long sections of the CDT use the excellent Wakefield Wheelers Way. They have put in all the hard work over decades of making paths accessible to cyclists and horse riders. The eastern section from Castleford to Marsden is definitely legit cycling stuff with the towpath, the wheelers way, the bridleways through Coxley valley and the lovely old old trail along Cheese Gate Nab. Beyond Marsden its all 100% legit cycle paths as the CDT is on 17th Century packhorse routes similar to the network of trials that the BB200 uses. And of course the CDT uses the trail laid out by the Pennine Bridleway. It'll be daft not to use such legit gems and pick a shitty footpath that would get walkers pissed off.

Just to be super clear I wouldn't select a footpath and use it on the CDT. Walkers need there bit of space and many footpaths go through fragile habitats that don't need 100's of riders passing through.

Some sections might come up as not being bridleways but they are b/w's on the ground. When I was drawing the CDT route on 'Ride With GPS' all the mapping options showed Marsden Moor as a footpath but it isn't. The trail across the moor is an 17th century packhorse route. The bridge at the start is a classic packhorse piece of stone architecture. There is one section of trail that IS down as a footpath on OS maps and on Ride With GPS but its 100% a lost green way and, as it sits between two other bridleways in the same valley and forms one long continuous trail, i have selected it as part of the CDT. When I've been on it I've meet horse riders so I trust them as well as trusting my map reading.

Like you say is important to have the high ground. I feel pretty safe up here in my tower in Halifax. I may be deluded but that's another issue!

Adrian

[outonmybike]

It's a fine line we tread between appearing to be a fun sponge and having a genuine concern for the organiser who may be blissfully unaware of the pitfalls of the rights of way legislation in England and Wales which are imo totally unfit for use. Reminds me of an off road duathlon I took part in about 15 years ago, again based in Kirkless. Most of the bike course was on bridleways and there was no doubt that the event was a race, mass start, timing gantry, prizes for the fastest etc etc. When I had the temerity to ask the organiser how they had managed to get around the legal issue of racing on bridleways I was met with a confused look followed by a load of abuse.

All good points Pisontbroke. There is no mass start on the Calder Divide Trail Challenge as we didn't want riders speeding out on mass. There are no prizes for coming first, second or third as its not a race.

The website does say times will be recorded but I take your point this can encourage a 'race mode' so I will remove that and not have a leader board.

There are 'spot prizes' but this is a random process and is not linked to time. Will riders race it. Possibly. Is this a good thing, definitely not. On the Saturday morning there will be ordinary cyclists and walkers and horse riders out on the trails and they don't want racers mowing them down to save a few minutes off some time. I know on the BB 200 i was overtaken at speed on some downhill sections but that might be because I'm slow! Perhaps i am naïve but i reckon the 150 miles and 13,000 feet route means no one is going to be full on race mode. On a practical note the event begins at 7am and I expect between 7am - 100am riders will depart. If you have any suggestions as to how the CDT Challenge could encourage an attitude of 'just enjoy the trail, don't be in a hurry' Id take them on board

Adrian

[Bearbonesnorm]

Like you say is important to have the high ground. I feel pretty safe up here in my tower in Halifax. I may be deluded but that's another issue!

Good man I don't know the area at all Adrian, so was simply going off the footpath comments posted by others.

[redefined_cycles]

Well done Adrian

[lune ranger]

There is one section of trail that IS down as a footpath on OS maps and on Ride With GPS but its 100% a lost green way and, as it sits between two other bridleways in the same valley and forms one long continuous trail, i have selected it as part of the CDT. When I've been on it I've meet horse riders so I trust them as well as trusting my map reading.

It was this bit that stood out to me.
Lost ancient green way or not if the OS map has it down as a public footpath then that’s what it is.
If it’s short enough then give riders the instruction to push or carry through the section. Better still re-route.
It’s all well and good doing a bit of cheeky footpath riding on your own but another thing for an organised ride.

[woodsmith]

There is one section of trail that IS down as a footpath on OS maps and on Ride With GPS but its 100% a lost green way and, as it sits between two other bridleways in the same valley and forms one long continuous trail, i have selected it as part of the CDT. When I've been on it I've meet horse riders so I trust them as well as trusting my map reading.

It was this bit that stood out to me.
Lost ancient green way or not if the OS map has it down as a public footpath then that’s what it is.
If it’s short enough then give riders the instruction to push or carry through the section. Better still re-route.
It’s all well and good doing a bit of cheeky footpath riding on your own but another thing for an organised ride.

Yep. It doesn't matter what it "looks like on the ground" if its not designated as a BW or other legally accessed cycleway then it shouldn't be used for an event. I'm sure we all can think of and use footpaths that have regular farm traffic or access to houses etc but just because they're " suitable" for cycling doesn't make it right to cycle on them.

If you want to disuade people from racing don't list finishing times and even set a minimum completion time that anyone coming in under will not be listed as a finisher/qualify for commemerative sticker/mug/tea-towel.

[boxelder]

There's an online definitive RoW map for Kirklees if that helps?

https://mapping.kirklees.gov.uk/connect ... 20(public)

Green for BW, purple for FP

Looks like lots of effort has gone into this, for a great cause, so hope it's a massive success. Not really been to Kirklees since teacher training at Mirfield in the '90's, so this could be just the excuse I need to return.

[pistonbroke]

In my experience, which involved 10 years of running Trailquest mountain bike orienteering events in mid Wales, the best way of categorically proving the status of a right of way is to consult the local authority definitive maps. When I was doing it I had to leaf through the physical maps that reside in the county archive but I'm pretty sure they're available on line now. If it's not of sufficient status to permit cycling, it's illegal, end of. One plus is that it may turn up some routes that are of higher status than it appears on the ground.
Edit, boxelder beat me to it.

[whitestone]

There's an online definitive RoW map for Kirklees if that helps?

https://mapping.kirklees.gov.uk/connect ... 20(public)

Green for BW, purple for FP

Looks like lots of effort has gone into this, for a great cause, so hope it's a massive success. Not really been to Kirklees since teacher training at Mirfield in the '90's, so this could be just the excuse I need to return.

And similar for Calderdale - https://www.calderdale.gov.uk/v2/maps-n ... ulture-map

[Alpinum]

Lets not forget that well done organisation of an event can change some minds and lead to acceptance

[lune ranger]

Lets not forget that well done organisation of an event can change some minds and lead to acceptance

It’s not going to change a footpath into a bridleway though is it?

[Alpinum]

Lets not forget that well done organisation of an event can change some minds and lead to acceptance

It’s not going to change a footpath into a bridleway though is it?

You never know.
We've seen bigger changes than that in cow country with gaining some acceptance.

[woodsmith]

Lets not forget that well done organisation of an event can change some minds and lead to acceptance

It’s not going to change a footpath into a bridleway though is it?

You never know.
We've seen bigger changes than that in cow country with gaining some acceptance.

No. Its a protracted official process, usually strongly opposed by the Ramblers association.

[boxelder]

Lets not forget that well done organisation of an event can change some minds and lead to acceptance

It’s not going to change a footpath into a bridleway though is it?

You never know.
We've seen bigger changes than that in cow country with gaining some acceptance.

No. Its a protracted official process, usually strongly opposed by the Ramblers association.

Not if the land owner grants permission for that event surely, a la the 3 Peaks CX? Not saying they would, but.....

[Cheeky Monkey]

I only know a little bit about (the arcane, ridiculous and unfit for purpose, IMO) RoW stuff. But (IMO, AFAIK etc):

1) OS mapping is not definitive. For that you need to consult the Definitive Map (digital or paper) that is held by the appropriate local authority (as others have mentioned). I believe you should also look at the Schedule that accompanies that map and further, though happy to be corrected on this, I believe the Schedule is "more" definitive than the Map.

2) Riding is not "illegal" if it is not recorded as a RoW category that includes for cycle use. It is just not permitted and, except where there are specific by laws and some other special circumstances, the offence is civil and therefore only liable for damage etc (probably telling granny how to such eggs on that one) all you're likely to get is an earful and to be asked to leave.

3) The designation of a RoW does not remove any higher rights that may exist. So for instance, where there is a footpath shown on an old drove road or similar then there can be legitimate access but it is not yet recorded.

As for the Ramblers antipathy, well, mleh. I sit on a LAF and there's as many pro-access for all as anti r/Ramblers reps, in my small sample size and personal anecdote experience. Funnily enough probably a similar distribution of clint-ish to responsible riders within the MTB group (and don't forget most of the group stuff is bollox because most people are walkers, paddlers, riders). Quite frankly I can't be arsed with building walls between user groups but hey, that's me

Adrian - you seem to be doing a good thing and to have considered many aspects It also speaks volumes that you've engaged on here in such a balanced and positive way If you are stuck or need assistance Kieran Foster at Cycling UK is very good at this stuff, has been instrumental in some long distance cycle routes and is also just a really good bloke. Though like all RoW nerds, they can really nerd-out given half the chance ;-). You can reach him through C-UK's contact pages. If you mention Tim from SingletrAction it might help, but then he's met me so it might not ;-)