Discussion time, as a few events get going on our shores what kind of "competitive" event would interest you or even work :?:
You have the BB200 and Cairngorm loops, which the fast guys will ride untill they drop, while others just attempt to complete in the time.
Then there's the up and coming EWE which will be a very tough challange, taking serious commitment in both time and energy, I suspect many will underestimate just how much.
Personally I think there's a gap for a larger loop event. Something that can be completed within a weeks holiday for the determined rider, but the racers could still hammer. One consideration was that riders could start anywhere on the loop, returning to the start to finish. This and the loop aspect could help with the logistics of getting to/from an event.
It would also ease trail issues by removing the mass start impact and please riders who don't like the pack aspect of a mass start.
Some good points there numplumz and an interesting topic ... I think it's 'non competitive' that draws the most interest, the WRT being a good example. Competitive events will always get the most attention but not the most riders ... I suppose not everyone's a racer The BB200 route is there 365 days a year as is the Cairngorns loop route, so if people want to have a stab without the pressure then they can ... I'm sure the same will be true for the EWE route also.
I reckon things are fairly well covered at present, you've got your races and you've got your rides/events. I'm sure other stuff will come along over the next 12 months or so as pro event organisers discover something 'new'
I'm working on a couple of things at the moment but they're more likely to end up being routes rather than events ... Possibly something for people to attempt in that weeks holiday.
Personally, I like the idea of longer non-racing events.
I've spent a long time riding road and have participated in a few organised sportives and have found myself "racing" around and not enjoying or even remembering a lot of the event because I was too focused on finishing quickly.
The better things i've done are when i'm out with mates on weekend rides or organised multi day rides. This basically boils down to the fact that you have time to stop and see the scenery, chat more and stop to enjoy a leisurely lunch or breakfast.
It's part of the reason why i'm riding more MTB so I can remember the reasons I started cycling in the first place. Mountain biking is the closest i'll even get to riding my BMX as a 6 year old. Throw in mates, liquor and camping and you've got yourself a party.
I think when doing the BB200, Steve and I both came to the same conclusion that the WRT was more our type of event, social and not really against the clock.
Once that clock was ticking on the BB200 there was pressure to keep up a decent pace(not that we did) and it just wasn't as enjoyable, for us anyway.
I'm guessing the Mach n Back is kinda like a winter WRT but with a social camp.
So for me it's WRT style events or single overnighters of the same ilk.
I will however be following the more competitive "races".
I agree that there's scope for something in between the BB200 or CL300 and Aidan's obviously very committing EWE. The next step up in terms of distance I suppose are 400 and 500km routes. Wales North to South is around 400, and the setting of a definitive course for people to test themselves on, either during a mass start type event or individually, would be good thing IMO.
Wales could easily yield a 500 or even 600 km route with enough thought. Interest for such an event would be limited to <40 odd people I would think, based on the level of interest on the Cairngorm Loop.
I suspect there's also a lot to go at in Scotland, of which I know comparatively little.
I only heard about the CL300 4/5 days after being mentioned on a USA site and it was already full. Assumed it was a bit of a 'mates race' thing due to lack of promotion, but I will follow it. I may do the route around that time anyway, I know bits of it, but as a more social ride after a couple of other rides.
Ian's Welsh c2c idea sounds good. I am not very quick (I rarely stopped on BB200) though I did have 8 hours off overnight because I wanted to, so will never challenge the leaders but can keep going.
Something like in fell running where there are the Bob Graham, Buckley and Ramsey(?) rounds would be good to see. These are to be completed in 24 hours though the quickest do it much quicker. Maybe longer taking 48 hours or a week for mtb purposes.
Like Numplumz idea of various start points on circuits to reduce number of riders as well.
Entered CL after seeing it on here, so it was a case of just being quick.
Just rides are great, but no mater how much you try, nothing gets people to commit like an event on a specific date.
Can't see any commercial player organising an event, there's nothing in it for them with our bridleway and liability laws.
Can't see any commercial player organising an event, there's nothing in it for them with our bridleway and liability laws.
I think that depends on whether it's an event or a race ... nearly all the 'enduro' type events are run in part on BW, etc. I'm thinking the CRC marathons and such like.
Can't see any commercial player organising an event, there's nothing in it for them with our bridleway and liability laws.
I'd like to see it stay that way tbh. Taking cues from the US long distance bikepacking events, such things in the UK should also be free.
I only heard about the CL300 4/5 days after being mentioned on a USA site and it was already full. Assumed it was a bit of a 'mates race' thing due to lack of promotion, but I will follow it
I could see it was going to fill up quickly, so it was very much a case of enter now and work out the logistics later...
I agree with Ian and prefer that these type of events stay low key. I applied the same strategy re: CL300 and will follow the EWE progress with interest, but will be amazed if my negotiating skills with Mrs P will enable me to make the start.
Really like Aidan's strategy of using peoples local experience to join together what should be a particularly challenging but enjoyable course. Definately space for more of these events,the speed at which CL300 filled up showed that but hopefully they won't be created too quickly as every year there are more and more events to do and only a finite number of pass outs available..... :?
I do think that everything will remain very low key, almost underground ... after all, we're a tiny minority within the greater sphere of mountain biking. Even singlespeeding tends to make more sense to the 'average' mountain biker than bikepacking/ultra racing/owt longer than 4 hours on a saddle does
I obviously missed the CL mention on here. I had seen a mention of an event by s8tannorm with no details as he was leaving it to the organiser, and rightly so. Next thing it was full.
TBH with a time limit of 50 hours I would not have entered anyway, I move to slowly and suspect have no chance of meeting that time limit. A number of the entrants passed me 4/5 times on day 2 of BB200 going considerably faster than me - I just didn't stop.
The CL route is on my 'to do list'. One of the riders I met on the Tour Divide lives in Newtonmore so it is on his doorstep, may pay a visit next year. Fancy the Outer Hebrides as well while I am up there.
Would you accept a challenge on the current course record at any time of the year then, or only during the official event?
blackhound wrote:I just didn't stop
That's the best strategy IMO. I find having a GPS that records moving time and total time to be a good motivator to keep going and keep both figures as close to each other as possible, as once you stop there's no way of getting that time back.
Would you accept a challenge on the current course record at any time of the year then, or only during the official event?
The 'record' only stands if the time is set at the event. Hitting it in mid summer as an example would be an unfair advantage. The point was, even if people haven't got a competetive nature, there's still stuff out there to have a go at as a personal challange. I'm always surprised more folk haven't had a stab at trying to better the time set for the Trans Cambrian (I believe it stands at 12H 10M) ... although it obviously wouldn't involve a night out.
I'm always surprised more folk haven't had a stab at trying to better the time set for the Trans Cambrian (I believe it stands at 12H 10M)
It's on my list. I need to ride the thing in one go first, possibly with a night out. I do know most of it already, but not how some it links together.
I can see more independent events organised by places like this forum. BUt can't really see 'promoters' getting involved, the risk assessment and insurance etc. will put them off alongside the minority nature of doing these events. WRT is busy, but in comparison to the average XC race it's not that busy, and that's with the STW forum effect. It doesn't have the party atmosphere of the big 24hr races, and the easy management of competitors. So i think it will remain a bunch of gear freaks, riding expensive toys around and sleeping rough.
Personally I think there's a gap for a larger loop event. Something that can be completed within a weeks holiday for the determined rider, but the racers could still hammer.
I definitely think there is some milage in this (haha) I would like to take on a bigger route - perhaps 3/4 nights of good riding. perhaps the faster guys would be done in 1/2 nights.
I enjoyed the BB200 but being definitely a mid-to-back pack kind of guy there was a definite eye on the clock as to whether we would make it round as opposed to what time. given a longer route (and taking say monday - friday off) i would be less concerned about finishing by some lunchtime and more about finishing.
All very interesting ... so out of interest, if a route/event/whatever was to come about would people prefer something linear or circular? Obviosly there's always going to be issues with transport, etc when something doesn't start/stop at the same point but some people do seem to like the feeling of a 'journey'.
I prefer linear routes so you feel the distance is "achieving" something. Obviously you then have transport costs to factor into events to get people back to the start etc, although with the self supportive nature of the events, if a ride ended at a public transport hub, this could be ok for some.
Car drivers would need to get back to somewhere though.
i think if costs were realistic, people wouldn't mind paying extra.
I prefer the WRT format of having to plan your own route, grabbing as many cps as you can to following a set route ala BB200, both are good fun, but the hours of pouring over maps, google earth-ing and so on is part of what makes the WRT such fun, plus strategy, planning and navigation etc plays as big a part as overall fitness.
The benefit of the linear or circular follow a route mini Tour Divide is that it's easy to control and make competative.
Either linear or circular work for me. My Wales coast to coast trip was good for being a journey and seeing a change in landscape as I progressed. Circular routes are equally good; BB200 works well and CL300 looks good too.
However, there's a clear distinction between the navigational type events like WRT, Polaris, TQ etc and ride A-B or A-B-C-D-A ITT events, of which BB200 is an example (if not the first in the UK?). The former has traditionally attracted entry fee as there is planning involved in setting checkpoints, compiling results etc (and it's more work than you think, having been an event coordinator for two Polaris events). The latter is simply a route drawn on a map for someone to follow in the fastest possible time. Determining the position of the line is the difficult bit in the absence of long distance MTB trails in this country.
Using the US example, most of the big bikepacking events I am aware of are free (except Iditarod), promoted either by individuals with no financial interest (e.g. TD, CTR) or people who can gain some indirect exposure to a related product they produce/sell (e.g. AZT). The development of similar events in the UK is heading the same way (i.e. CL300, EWE). Contributions from a small number of passionate individuals in the creation of these events is a Good Thing for the small division of mountain biking that we are.
Separate issue: I think the "getting back to the start" thing needs to be put into context - we're on a pretty small island with a generally good transport network. You can get anywhere you want in a day.
c.f. finishing the TD and having to ride from Antelope Wells back to Silver City (80 odd miles) and then getting a bus to Phoenix, AZ...
But pedant alert - AW to Silver City is 125 miles (about same as BB200) but uphill and in 100 degree heat. Then getting to El Paso / Phoenix / Alberquerque, as Ian says, is another long journey.
Hi, this is a good discussion I’ve just found. I'm Steve Wilkinson, and I set-up the Cairngorms Loop. I’m interested what next too. I’d like to explain how the Cairngorms Loop evolved, with my thoughts on UK self-supported challenges, a UK rules framework, and my future ideas. I’m not new to self-supported biking, having been involved with the US racing from the early days. I was the first Brit to finish a Divide Race, and the second ever rider to race the full GDMBR from Banff, before the Tour Divide existed. I’ve made seven trips over there now since 2006, for events, or to go and bike in the backcountry, and have two more races booked for next year. Having also followed the goings on since Mike C and Pete B’s 2004 effort on the Divide, I felt I had a good enough understanding of the races and their principles to run an event.
The UK is a very different place from the US, and although I’ve had the seed of an idea to set-up a UK self-supported event for a while, I didn’t really know what to do with it. Problems I saw were; too many gates, too much civilisation, too much chance of conflict with walkers, too short, too much chance of getting blamed for something. Then I got more into Scotland last year, riding the Tour of the Cairngorms a couple of times, and Skye to Montrose. I realised the area was ripe for an event, but couldn’t think up anything long enough in a loop, which in my mind was minimum 300 miles. In my head it’s always been a 2-3 day weekend loop ride, since I can’t imagine people wanting to take time off work to ride in the UK. (I now realise I’m probably wrong there.) Then Stuart stepped up to organise the BB200. I rode it, and realised a weekend format worked really well. I went away from there with a plan, and bounced my thinking process off Stuart (thanks) and put together the Cairngorms Loop.
I wanted to set-up TCL with an aim to define a set of rules for self-supported racing that suited the UK, and based on the same philosophy as the US races. And I also think they should also be free (Stuart I understand you run a business). The ‘alpine style’ [double] kind of adopted on some routes frustrated me by its unfairness to how it was being done. Take for instance the rider that drives several hours Friday night to get there, does his thing on his own without ceremony, then drives home and does his best to get through Monday at work. Compare that to the sponsored rider who has loads of pre and post ride support, people out on course to encourage, and an easy bail-out option car around-££. There’s no comparison to the rides. Mental support and bail-out options like that shouldn’t be allowed, and I see that as a potential problem for UK racing. Remoteness helps. I also can’t understand why buying food is prohibited when all that metal support isn’t – which can’t work on long routes, so commercial premises should be fair game, as in the US.
My biggest concern about an event was getting a field together that would finish, that understood completely the ethos and rules, that wouldn’t expect me to answer 100 questions, and wouldn’t sue me, etc. I felt like I was sticking my neck out here. I also wanted to avoid any drama queens that need a press release, media caravan, and a magazine article to go biking. Mainstream media publicity I feel is the last thing this kind of racing needs – it would result in a high percentage of entrants wanting in who don’t have the skills and fitness. Then you get 50% DNFs of a limited field, cheating, complaining, people wanting the rules relaxed, etc. I don’t mind the celebrity bikers riding, as long as they can do it with humility.
There were 30 riders on the BB200, which seemed a low impact number that blended into the background, so I decided to set a limit for TCL at the same. Maybe it will increase, but I want to see how the first run goes. Clearly the guys I ride with, the first eight on the list, knew what I was up to and were on board at concept stage (to that degree it is a mate’s race). I then posted on the boards and sent out a few invites to the Brits I’d raced the Colorado Trail Race with in the summer. It was a first come first served basis. I have no intent at all for it to be elitist for fast racers only, just competent people I can trust to behave. I'm no racer myself, I’m just there for the challenge, and I’m all for the rider who just wants to test themselves rather than chase numbers. For me, mountain biking and these events are all about spending time with friends in the great outdoors, and the eight hour bivvi and long restaurant lunch is my style of riding.
At the moment there are more 100 mile trail-running races than 100 mile mountain bike races in the UK. This is not right. Riding 100-200 miles on a weekend shouldn’t be the big deal the mass mountain biking media have conditioned us to believe. We need more no fuss events, for the rider that doesn’t want or need any event organisation, just a framework. We need more new routes, which we can share, make a weekend event of it with likeminded folks, living in the craziness of off-road speed touring or racing. If we each put something in, we can all get something much bigger out, and my suggestion is they should be free, US style (I don’t agree Scott’s AZT is about Topofusion – his passion runs deep for that trail). I’m tired of doing the same old training routes every year like SDW x 2, PBW+MTL, Trans-Cam, Southern Upland Way, etc. (I also don’t like gates please)
Depending on how the Cairngorms Loop goes, if I find another good ~200 mile ride I’ll throw it out there. It will be on a loop, because although this country is small, using public transport can be a pain, especially on a Sunday night - I’ve arrived late at a station with a bike to be told it’s a bus service, and no bikes on busses. And I’m not taking a day off work to travel back. When we used to ride the SDW several years ago, we soon figured out it was easier just to ride back the next day than use trains, busses, or a car at each end.
Taking this further I would like to see some longer routes too, let’s call them mid-range around ~400 miles, as opposed to the weekender, or EWE which will probably remain the big one. I’m sure I can get Alan Goldsmith to put one together in Scotland, an A-B most likely. The idea to TT something in the Alps is also an idea Alan is playing with, and I’m interested too, but might not be for a bit as the USA trips use up all my holiday. We will see, but there could be couple more things next year to go at.
I realise I’ve gone on a lot there, but I love this style of mountain biking, and would like to see more rides in the UK. Hopefully something useful in there for anyone else thinking about organising something.
Personally I think there's a gap for a larger loop event. Something that can be completed within a weeks holiday for the determined rider, but the racers could still hammer. One consideration was that riders could start anywhere on the loop, returning to the start to finish. This and the loop aspect could help with the logistics of getting to/from an event.
The BB200 route is there 365 days a year as is the Cairngorns loop route, so if people want to have a stab without the pressure then they can ... I'm sure the same will be true for the EWE route also.
