'The China effect'

[PaulB2]

And how would we feel if folk in other countries were boycotting our goods and services?

Due to a combination of pandemic and Brexit red tape, I'm not sure we'd notice for a while if they actively boycotted as well.

[Dave Barter]

Am I correct in thinking that we allow arms exports rather than actively sell?

[ScotRoutes]

Am I correct in thinking that we allow arms exports rather than actively sell?

Both the Royal Family and the RAF Red Arrows are/have been used to promote British weapons manufacturers.

[Lazarus]

no we actvely sell and are second only to the USA and our biggest customer is Saudi who use the weapons so they can bomb foreign civilians in Yemen, keeptheir own population n line - We have sold batons and the like and of course to kill thier own citizens in thier embassys

Basically we actively sell to countries we [ givt reports] consider to breach human rights

Much like money laundering and tax evasion we are trully world leading - money talks here and morality walks [ away hanging its head in shame]

We also send ministers to trade shows. I am not sure how we could be more active tbh

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54435335

https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... nce-geneva

[thenorthwind]

Am I correct in thinking that we allow arms exports rather than actively sell?

I think you're probably correct insofar as it's private companies selling the goods, but aided and abetted by the government who licence the manufacture and export, promote it with trade envoys, ministers at trade shows, access to "the right people", and generally make it as easy as possible for arms producers here to make a fast buck out of people's misery pretty much anywhere else, all in the name of "economic growth."

[Dave Barter]

Am I correct in thinking that we allow arms exports rather than actively sell?

I think you're probably correct insofar as it's private companies selling the goods, but aided and abetted by the government who licence the manufacture and export, promote it with trade envoys, ministers at trade shows, access to "the right people", and generally make it as easy as possible for arms producers here to make a fast buck out of people's misery pretty much anywhere else, all in the name of "economic growth."

I asked the question not as a defence of the government but a question because I was thinking “who do we buy from in order to sell or do we directly fund manufacturing”.

[Lazarus]

i dont think the govt makes anything - do we have any state owned manufacturing anymore?

They certanly value it and facilitate it

[jameso]

I'm not sure boycotting a nation is a solution (although that's a Q I ask about China) since if you want to be consistent, where would you buy from? You could rank sources maybe. But I think some action even if disproportionate is better than no action and not giving a shirt. And we could look at individual companies and brands, consider where things are made, shipped in from etc, the impact that has, ask more questions about their ethics and audits etc. Make what's important to us known. Since

we gotta start from somewhere

When I read more about China's HR abuses (long history, Uyghur genocide goes back 20yrs, plus Tibet) or the covert influence of the UK and USA etc.. I start to think small and local. Globalisation reeks of power abuses. Buy a steel bike from your local framebuilder if ethics and impact are a priority, shop local, etc.
Edit to be clear, I don't think Santa Cruz or Trek are globalisation bad guys. Or that big companies are necessarily bad companies. Smaller seems to be more beautiful though, more balanced, fairer.

[Bearbonesnorm]

When I read more about China's HR abuses (long history, Uyghur genocide goes back 20yrs, plus Tibet) or the covert influence of the UK and USA etc.. I start to think small and local. Globalisation reeks of power abuses. Buy a steel bike from your local framebuilder if ethics and impact are a priority, shop local, etc.

I read something the other day ... I can't remember the exact figures so I've based this on a population of 54 million which is roughly everyone over 18. Anyway, if each of us spent £5 a week shopping local, using local suppliers, etc. That would be 270 million per week, over a year, that's quite an amount.

[Cheeky Monkey]

Maybe it would be more effective to dedicate an equivalent amount of time and energy that it would take to do this (possibly) ineffective boycotting and instead use it to support an NGO or some other pressure group?

Just an idea and not preaching. I understand and generally agree that boycotting MiC goods is likely to be so infinitesimally small a thing that it's probably not going to matter. However, if it makes you feel better - crack on

[Dave Barter]

Maybe it would be more effective to dedicate an equivalent amount of time and energy that it would take to do this (possibly) ineffective boycotting and instead use it to support an NGO or some other pressure group?

Just an idea and not preaching. I understand and generally agree that boycotting MiC goods is likely to be so infinitesimally small a thing that it's probably not going to matter. However, if it makes you feel better - crack on

I don't disagree with this. I'm a firm believer in globalisation so obvs should be burned at the stake. If China lost its trade many many ordinary Chinese people would suffer. The answer is to change the system globally not practice protectionism. Please don't ask me how this is achieved practically.

[tobasco]

Difficult for UK to adopt the moral high ground, given our history.

I reckon likely impossible for UK to be wholly self sufficient without standard of living dropping below what electorate would stomach.

I’m a supporter of globalisation, how about UK tries to lead by example - cut arms sales/manufacture would be a good start.

[jameso]

Maybe it would be more effective to dedicate an equivalent amount of time and energy that it would take to do this (possibly) ineffective boycotting and instead use it to support an NGO or some other pressure group?

Just an idea and not preaching. I understand and generally agree that boycotting MiC goods is likely to be so infinitesimally small a thing that it's probably not going to matter. However, if it makes you feel better - crack on

You could do both : )
Supporting the positives directly seems to be more direct than avoiding negatives indirectly, I'd agree. Boycotts make us think about the reasons why and awareness of a problem is a big part of it all, so perhaps not as ineffective as it might look?

I'm a firm believer in globalisation

Same here in fact. The more interlinked we all are the more I'd hope we see the importance of co-operation etc.

[Dave Barter]

Difficult for UK to adopt the moral high ground, given our history.

I reckon likely impossible for UK to be wholly self sufficient without standard of living dropping below what electorate would stomach.

I’m a supporter of globalisation, how about UK tries to lead by example - cut arms sales/manufacture would be a good start.

Or fork all defence business into the space race.

[lune ranger]

Difficult for UK to adopt the moral high ground, given our history.

I reckon likely impossible for UK to be wholly self sufficient without standard of living dropping below what electorate would stomach.

I’m a supporter of globalisation, how about UK tries to lead by example - cut arms sales/manufacture would be a good start.

Or fork all defence business into the space race.

Totally. Why ruin only one planet then there’s a whole universe to be exploited

[NewRetroTom]

Totally. Why ruin only one planet then there’s a whole universe to be exploited

Username checks out...

[tobasco]

I’d like to see a workable plan for ecocide, climate and global poverty before exporting our current way of thinking off planet.

[redefined_cycles]

i dont think the govt makes anything - do we have any state owned manufacturing anymore?

They certanly value it and facilitate it

Not sure if it's govt owned but apparently making drones and other arsenel to ensure annihilation of the Palestinians. A group called Palestine Action (I believe) have managed to scale the building and it's been shut down for 6 days it appears. Police aren't allowing food and drink to be let through to the protesters (2 on the roof). Whilst they are up there it would appear operations are on hold...

Well done them

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news ... er-5450737

[jameso]

From an advertising strategist's blog today. No answers suggested in it, simply a well-expressed comment on a similar topic.

It's hard to work in advertising and have second thoughts about capitalism. I've been here more times than I can count. And yet, the answer doesn't seem as simple as ‘burn the whole thing down’. We can get to more nuance, but that starts with inner work.

Capitalism isn't evil, but it's a tool. Tools get co-opted by bad actors. And bad ideas are often good ideas taken too far. We are now seeing new and more sustainable versions of a ‘more ok capitalism’. I hope they grow in scale and influence.

But my version of ‘ok capitalism’ is different than yours, because my values may be different too. This is ok. It's necessary. It's how we keep discussing the true nature of progress. And it's how we make career choices that may feel more ethical to us too. Knowing those values opens a diagnosis, and hints at a strategy. The rest is tactics.

The great mistake of moral philosophy? To assume there are ultimate answers, and if only everyone followed them. Reality is messier than that. There are infinite answers, to fit infinite ways to structure our lives. Sure, there are very wrong answers we can all agree on. But if we work out what we value first, the rest can start following.

I value compassion, clarity of thought and creativity. These things give my life more meaning. So my version of ‘ok capitalism’ needs them. They shape my behaviours at work, where my career could go next, and who I won't work for, or on behalf of.

Will this save the world? I don't know. Does it give me a useful template to keep chipping away at trying to live in a more net positive way? It does. And it's something I can keep evolving over the next decade, instead of burning out by next year.

[thenorthwind]

From an advertising strategist's blog today. No answers suggested in it, simply a well-expressed comment on a similar topic.

It's hard to work in advertising and have second thoughts about capitalism. I've been here more times than I can count. And yet, the answer doesn't seem as simple as ‘burn the whole thing down’. We can get to more nuance, but that starts with inner work.

Capitalism isn't evil, but it's a tool. Tools get co-opted by bad actors. And bad ideas are often good ideas taken too far. We are now seeing new and more sustainable versions of a ‘more ok capitalism’. I hope they grow in scale and influence.

But my version of ‘ok capitalism’ is different than yours, because my values may be different too. This is ok. It's necessary. It's how we keep discussing the true nature of progress. And it's how we make career choices that may feel more ethical to us too. Knowing those values opens a diagnosis, and hints at a strategy. The rest is tactics.

The great mistake of moral philosophy? To assume there are ultimate answers, and if only everyone followed them. Reality is messier than that. There are infinite answers, to fit infinite ways to structure our lives. Sure, there are very wrong answers we can all agree on. But if we work out what we value first, the rest can start following.

I value compassion, clarity of thought and creativity. These things give my life more meaning. So my version of ‘ok capitalism’ needs them. They shape my behaviours at work, where my career could go next, and who I won't work for, or on behalf of.

Will this save the world? I don't know. Does it give me a useful template to keep chipping away at trying to live in a more net positive way? It does. And it's something I can keep evolving over the next decade, instead of burning out by next year.

Very interesting. I think if there's one common thing causing many of the world's ills (and yes, I realise that looking for one is somewhat contradictory, and goes against the 5th paragraph above) is that things are over-simplified and made easy. Very rarely are things simple, problems have simple answers, or shortcuts effective without causing harm somewhere else.

This is how you end up with cities designed around cars, prepared food in single-use plastic, and the belief that the world could be sorted out if only everyone voted for party X.

[redefined_cycles]

Well done that person...

If only The NY Times and Youtube/TikTok could take lessons from this. Someone called Gigi Hadid (very famous supermodel apparently) shared on her Insta (or some social media feed) her on a proPalestine march. The shout they were doing was 'from the river (Jordan) to the sea, Palestine will be free'.

What followed was the official Israel twitter account claiming they'd been saying 'chuck the jews* into the sea' and then one of the Zionist* american Israelis actually paying for an ad in the NYTimes to slander her and her friends who are standing up against the targeting of the civilian population. Calling them anti-semitic I believe...

Zeeshan from Smile to Jannah as well as Novaris media did some YT videos about these said activities. The ex military who spoke out can be seen here I believe... Breaking The Silence it seems is the name of the documentary and at last count there were about 900 ex soldiers that came out to give testimony
https://www.democracynow.org/2015/5/6/k ... s_say_gaza

*Zionism, not to be confused with judaism and anti semitism not to be confused with anti-zionism. Thankfully alot of jewish-Israel people (I say this cos the muslim-israel citizens don't have the same rights so can't voice themselves) are actually speaking out now also... as have the ex-servicemen and women of the Israel state.

[redefined_cycles]

Some of the indy news channels seem to make it a lot less complicated than the mainstream media...

I'm gonna subscribe to these lot at Double Down News (on Patreon) https://youtu.be/OPPAfhamioc

[redefined_cycles]

Bringing up an old thread (thanks James for opening it initally). Some of you might know that I've been trying to not buy China goods for a while now. Don't always get it right but I do try and will keep trying until they finally stop/close the concentration camps with the Uighers and generally stop abusing them (and I'm sure others but this is probably the biggest issue at hand).

A few weeks or a couple of months ago I noted a post Samsung having some involvement with some of their gear being made in/around the Turkestan region (China insist it should be called Xinjiang province but the Uigher population refer to it as Turkestan which I'm going with - AFAIR the similar way that Israel insist that Palestine isn't Palestine and many world maps have obliterated the ne off the map!). Anyway, I'm not here to have a dig at Samsung or any other manufacturers but I am soon in the market for a new phone. Apparently my last one doesn't have much life left of the screen, though I'm yet to experience any proper evidence of this!

I did a quick google search and this post https://notochina.org/best-cell-phones- ... -in-china/ highlights how we shouldn't get confused between PRC and ROC (Peoples Republic of China and Republic of China, respectively). This prompted me to thinking back to the Milwaukee equipment I have and the stamp. I always assumed its made in China but now I'll have to go recheck. Apparently Republic of China is referring to Taiwan.

Without getting all confused on the issue... Does anyone happen to have a good suggestion of a good phone not made in China pls. Don't really want to go for something substandard as the current one is a Galaxy S8 of about 5 years now...

[redefined_cycles]

On a sidenote... When I bought the Santa Cruz frame (Highball I think it's called), even though I'd thought I was paying the extra dosh for US manufacturing, it had a nasty label on it stating 'Made in China'
Was slightly very gutted but a lesson to myself to not assume. I generally these days just email the manufacturer to confirm where the stuff is made before commiting. Especially when paying big money for something..

Maybe some day soon many others with start thinking more like James and at least start the process of beginning to stay away to at least push them to stop the abuses...

[jameso]

Does anyone happen to have a good suggestion of a good phone not made in China pls

HTC perhaps - some are made in Taiwan (not sure if all) and it's a Taiwanese company. ime via the bike industry Taiwan and China are very closely linked in terms of manufacturing trade, many companies have facilities in both countries and HTC may well be similar so it's worth checking. Culturally they're certainly different countries but it depends on how / what you see as 'supporting the CCP'.

at least start the process of beginning to stay away to at least push them to stop the abuses...

Hate to sound pessimistic but China's so massive and their manufacturing economy so complex and hard to avoid... but the more people are aware of it the more careful brands are with who makes what for them. Unfortunately that seems to mean 'make stuff in Shenzen or Tianjin, it's ok there', which may be a long way from the camps but is still supporting the economy and regime.