'The China effect'

[jameso]

In another thread this was mentioned RE listing country of origin and concerns about human rights, the CCP in general etc.

It's an interesting topic that has been on my mind for some time (like over a decade) as I work in an industry that sources from China. I've been there a number of times to bike assemblers and factories though wouldn't claim to have much understanding of the culture. I don't believe many westerners could w/o speaking the language and living there. It's a fascinating place and what little I have read of the cultural effect of the politics has been somewhere between concerning and frightening.

I can't be too anti without being a hypocrite - If you own a Pinnacle, Genesis, etc you've bought into Chinese manufacturing to some extent and I ride a custom steel gravel bike a chap in China made a small batch of for me, something set up outside of work relationships. I like being there. I have very mixed feelings about the place overall.


Anyway, the general point that we might not buy based on where something is made or how we feel about brands sourcing there? I'm not sure there's an answer and I've raised this one before. Personally, just interested in how people feel about it.

- It's so hard to avoid it - your phone, the laptop I'm on now, etc - so if concerned, what do we do?
- Arguably battery materials mining is just as concerning as 'made in China' so where does it rank / do we use our capitalist votes elsewhere on other causes?
- Buy made in the UK instead? Well we're hardly saints are we, supplying the Saudis with arms to destroy the Yemen and so on. Perhaps (or perceived) not at the HR abuse levels of China although that's a topic in itself that I don't understand enough to have an opinion on.

I guess it's a Q about how we feel about where globalism is vs our bike components and camping gear on the micro level. Just a light discussion eh

Sometimes I think it's just how it is, sometimes I think as consumers we're the only ones who can influence change, if we feel strongly enough to inconvenience ourselves or, crucially, are able to spend more to make that choice. ie those who can use their capitalist votes are already the winners in global capitalism to some extent so that's a messed up circular system..

I don't believe this topic influences purchasing in medium or large companies. If factory audits (MSA, environmental) check out, the government of the country the factory is located in will have no bearing on sourcing, outside of any trade tariffs etc. The biggest reason to avoid China for some companies is IP protection. There's also some interesting commentary online about how a large company eg Apple gets access to large scale manufacturing in China. Basically the CCP gets what it wants from the deal and it's suggested that's often technology or data.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I too have mixed feelings and believe that we're perhaps too far down the path to begin backtracking. Buy British seems like a dead horse these days and even if things are assembled in the UK, chances are that many raw materials have crossed the sea to get here - maybe it's a step in the right direction or maybe it achieves nothing?

It's the IP thing that concerns me most and the consumers desire for ever cheaper products that drive it. Why should I pay £220 for a Lunar Solo when I can buy a Chinese clone for less than £100? Simply because someone invested lots of time developing the idea, that's why. There's also (in my mind) the longterm effects of consuming cheap sh1te by way of seeing it as somewhat disposable ... would you see so many abandoned campsites if the equipment had Rab / TN / Exped / MSR labels on it rather than Mountain Whorehouse and Go Indoors? Yes, their products may still be manufactured in China but the additional cost of them adds 'value' and worth and more of an investment which is likely to see more care and have a longer life. I would also like to believe that QC is better (warranty certainly is) but maybe I'm kidding myself - dunno?

Perhaps it's just the natural cycle of things? Once we were the workshop of the world. When I was a kid 'made in Japan' was something people sneered at, yet we were knocking out such classics as the BL Maxi

[whitestone]

Not an easy subject to be wholly correct on. Pretty well everything we own has some connection with regimes or countries we might feel uneasy about offering overt support to. Unless you grow your own food, raise sheep for wool, grow cotton for clothes, etc. then somewhere in the supply chain you'll find something you don't like.

You may buy a "Made in Britain/Europe/USA" product but where does the material come from, the fittings, fasteners, etc? Modern production is international in scope and scale. Big business will chase the cheapest source - a company I worked for went from UK to Romania to China and were looking at Vietnam for their production. D. Trump raised support amongst American miners by promising to reinvigorate the industry yet during his term US coal production fell, why? The biggest market for coal is production of electricity and the financiers don't make enough money from coal fired power stations so they aren't offering loans for them.

To paraphrase: cheap, plentiful, ethical - pick any two. The majority of western consumers have fixated (or been led to fixate) on the first two.

[lune ranger]

Ethical consumption is a vastly complex subject, and one, in my experience, that only becomes more complicated the more you investigate it.
The bottom line is any purchase of anything has consequences over a broad spectrum - environmental, human rights, sustainability, animal rights etc. Most people are unaware of these consequences through ignorance (I mean this in the literal sense of ‘not knowing’), selfishness, or self-delusion.
Changing your habits of consumption by thinking about the potential consequences can only be a good thing. That you James are thinking about this, and raising it here is a good thing.
Personally I try to think how my actions impinge on the world and the things that inhabit it. I try to reduce my impact where possible - according my own set of ethics. A good starting point for me with bike and outdoor stuff are these questions: 1) Do I actually need this thing. 2) Do I have something that fits the same job adequately already. 3) Can I get this thing second hand. 4) Can I find something similar that is less impactful/more sustainable.
I’m no saint. I’m probably at risk of being called hypocritical but I try to largely run those questions through before jumping in and buying something. It means I have second hand bike frames and components. It means I still have old spec components because they haven’t broken. It means I haven’t flown away on any trips in the last 9 years.
Does any of this change the world? Not really. Would it if everyone did the same - by their own rules? Maybe, maybe not, but I’d like to think it would.

[ton]

my thoughts are quite often a bit strange. in my mind the way forward would be to close all trade borders with all other countries. no import, no export. make everything we need in our own countries. grow all we need to eat in our own countries.
would this be possible ? i dont know. but we produce steel, cars, tech stuff here, we grown a sub standard load of produce for export, we sell most of our farmed animal abroad, we sell all our seafood abroad. keep it all here, sell it all here.
so when you go shopping it is put money back into our economy, not a company in china, tiawan, turkey, usa, where ever.


or i may just be talking bollocks.

[Dave Barter]

Does any of this change the world? Not really.

I disagree, it does change the world but the magnitude is not as perceptible as you would like. A ship still lists if a fly lands on the handrail. Every action of the thoughtful consumer helps and I feel we mustn’t propagate the feeling that we cannot make a difference individually as we can, it just takes time.

[jameso]

Not an easy subject to be wholly correct on

Agreed, I'm not sure what correct is. Doesn't seem fair that factories run by good people lose business due to a govt they can't influence either.

Stuart, the IP point might be the biggest challenge or influence for some. On one hand a tarp design is unlikely to be protectable IP based on originality anyway, on the other hand even if it was a company there would copy it as they see IP and 'copies' in a different way to us, quite interestingly to me when it was explained how/why. 'Badly Made In China' is a good book on all that.
I should add, QC is as good as a brand invests in so a company blaming bad QC in a factory is often covering up for poor product management. I have seen more variance or less care taken at a given product level in Chinese factories than SE Asia but that's a low sample size. China gets a rep for bad products as they make to a very low price for those who want it.

I feel we mustn’t propagate the feeling that we cannot make a difference individually as we can, it just takes time.

100%. And it's why people who work in sourcing and product businesses should pay attention to it. Environmental concerns seem much easier to address than political and HR concerns though.

[jameso]

: 1) Do I actually need this thing. 2) Do I have something that fits the same job adequately already. 3) Can I get this thing second hand. 4) Can I find something similar that is less impactful/more sustainable.

So true. If more of us went through this process we'd all be better off in some ways, though the economy would have to change (it needs to).
It is all an onion topic isn't it, multi-layered and the more you peel back the stronger the smell.

Perhaps a god place to mention this if anyone hadn't already seen what they're doing to get the sourcing topic on more company agendas, more from a sustainability pov than anything else,

https://www.shiftcyclingculture.com/

[whitestone]

Would sort of be nice Tony, but ...

We've used up most of our resources like iron ore long ago when we were the industrial powerhouse/workshop of the world so we'd need to import that. Aluminium is an interesting one - it's infinitely recyclable and supposedly there's enough in circulation that if it was all recycled then there'd be no need to mine or import bauxite.

Food, given I grew up on a farm and most of my family are farmers. The UK hasn't been self sufficient in food for at least 200 years, there's some stuff we just can't grow here plus some that might be possible but would be very energy intensive to do so. Then there's availability and the market: lamb's a good example. At wholesale prices the market is worth roughly £2bn a year. We export 45% of that and import roughly the same value. Sounds daft but it's all due to timing, well mostly, there's a surge in the UK sales in lamb are around Easter but our production is out of kilter with that - because of when ewes come into season UK lambs are born Jan to April and are only ready for market from July to August onwards. So we'd have to store a lot of lamb in big commercial freezer warehouses for the rest of the year which would make it very expensive. So the UK sells its lamb surplus abroad and imports the shortfall (from NZ and Australia).

Fishing - the irony of the fishermen mostly supporting Brexit is that the UK populace doesn't like the species our fishermen catch but it's popular on the continent so that's where it gets sold. Conversely we don't have a deep sea fleet so have to import the species, cod, etc. that we do like.

[woodsmith]

It's the IP thing that concerns me most and the consumers desire for ever cheaper products that drive it. Why should I pay £220 for a Lunar Solo when I can buy a Chinese clone for less than £100? Simply because someone invested lots of time developing the idea, that's why.

Perhaps not the best example as Luna Solos are made in china and have been for several years.

[ScotRoutes]

It's the IP thing that concerns me most and the consumers desire for ever cheaper products that drive it. Why should I pay £220 for a Lunar Solo when I can buy a Chinese clone for less than £100? Simply because someone invested lots of time developing the idea, that's why.

Perhaps not the best example as Luna Solos are made in china and have been for several years.

It's a really good example.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I think you've just described 1970's Russia Tony

Perhaps not the best example as Luna Solos are made in china and have been for several years.

Nothing to do with country of manufacture - we're talking about IP and knock-offs.

[whitestone]

It's the IP thing that concerns me most and the consumers desire for ever cheaper products that drive it. Why should I pay £220 for a Lunar Solo when I can buy a Chinese clone for less than £100? Simply because someone invested lots of time developing the idea, that's why.

Perhaps not the best example as Luna Solos are made in china and have been for several years.

I was reading a blog, either by a small US manufacturer or one of the trekking/wilderness guys like Andrew Skurka and they noted that small to medium manufacturers were basically stuffed: they either had their products made in China at which point the factory had the design and could simply pass it on to one of their subsidiaries or co-factories to produce; or if they manufactured in the States then someone associated with the chinese factory would simply buy one and reverse engineer it and then rip it off. The like of Apple are big enough to override this - the factories play ball or they won't get any of the current or future business, everyone else just has to deal with it.

[shutupthepunx]

ethical consumerism, if such thing can exist, is a drop in the ocean. but if we all did it. but we're not all gona do it.

mud. stick-in-the.

[lune ranger]

Does any of this change the world? Not really.

I disagree, it does change the world but the magnitude is not as perceptible as you would like. A ship still lists if a fly lands on the handrail. Every action of the thoughtful consumer helps and I feel we mustn’t propagate the feeling that we cannot make a difference individually as we can, it just takes time.

Absolutely that’s why I do it but it just feels like pissing in the wind sometimes.
While the populace is indoctrinated to believe they ‘deserve’ the likes of strawberries 12months a year, holidays in autocratic regimes and so cheap as to be disposable clothes made by indentured labourers the actions of thinking consumers make a very small difference indeed.

[fatbikephil]

Interesting Bob, me an Mum were just discussing the lamb import export thing and neither of us knew why. Now I do!

Something that has been very topical in the last 12 months is supply chain resilience. Thanks to excessive focus on 'just in time' logistics and paring everything back to the bone in terms of transport and storage, the UK came very close to major food shortages twice. Just after xmas it very nearly went pear shaped due to Brexit and the French getting somewhat angsty about letting UK drivers into their country. It was only due to wholesalers stockpiling at the end of last year that we got away with it. Having your food supply chain (or any supply chain) wholly within your own country makes for very high resilience but could we go back to seasonal variations in food? As Bob says, we could never hope to get back to manufacturing levels of the '50's, mainly due to lack of raw materials. The genie is out of the bottle to a large extent but I think there is scope for increasing food production and supply in this country. But, people make big bucks out of import and export business and the financial scams that go on behind it.....

Back on topic, I don't think there is an issue with manufacture taking pace in specific places around the world, we just need to improve energy efficiency of the transport and make the system less vulnerable to hicups like the occasional Global pandemic.......

[redefined_cycles]

James... interesting topic and really proud of you to havw brought it up. I've been using decisions of where to buy based upon quality and work ethics for a very very long time now. Probably as far back when I realised Israel were one of the brand leaders in terms of Stanley (when working at B&Q. I try not to rant on about it too much as, like you said above, it's a sensitive and complex topic...

China being probably one of the most interesting one's, but I'll start from the top (probably won't cos my mind might be all over the place).

Work ethics, slave labour, working conditions and hatred for Islam and muslims (ok, that's not just China), namely the Uigurs... China I try to avoid but then you find summat equally well constructed but it's made in Cambodia where they burn (literally) muslims freely. So one of my favourite brands sourcing from China, Ra*pha... I try to ensure I look at the label and if its says Portugal I grab it.. If China I try to leave alone... etc etc.

Medjoul dates (legendary succulent high calorie from Palestine). The sanctions put on the poor farmers are so bad by the Israel govt that most end up on the verge of becoming stale. Then the big companies (I'm not sure what but there's a fair few) go in for the kill and buy high value dates for 'chuck in the bin' prices... For years I've tried to avoid these 'stolen' ones but the big companies are good at hiding the origins and have labels like 'packed in France... Tunisia... etc etc). Thankfully for fair trade corporations like Zaytouna and their predecessors they manage to help some farmers get their products to the world at a fair price without them going stale. I do try and buy them...

Made in Britain/USA I'm fairly happy with as I'm convinced that at least the workers and their rights haven't been abused. So I buy with confidence and a bit of satisfaction (but not pride) that money is being distributed properly.

Erm... France... Recently I've decided to stop buying their trash and not only cos it's underegineered tripe. Yes, you guesssed it, it's the Islamophobic stance of that there country. So I decided I'd not buy Decathlon and then looked into their history. Seems when the ban on muslim-women friendly sports lit came out, Decathlon were at the forefront of providing for that sector of society. But (according to newspaper reports) the French folks (obviously not all) decided to boycott them. That was what triggered Decathlon to review their stock and remove these muslim friendly sports items. Hence I do make a point of buying Decathlon but not French goods in general.

Bottom line, its super complicated and as manufacturers I would say you can but do your best. Looks like that's what your doing and as such I'll keep proudly buying Pinnacle gear.

Apologies if my discussion sounds like a rant... It's not and I'm happy with life that reminds me, I need to put an order in for some over priced Medjoul dates (but their fare trade) and maybe some more honey soon from RawHoneyShop (but he has a good workig relationship with the bee keepers all over the world).

One things for certain, I deifnielty think we can all do our bit in terms of ethical buying (and selling) and won't suddenly become poorer. It'll just force brands to review their contracts and think a bit more carefully...

[redefined_cycles]

Does any of this change the world? Not really.

I disagree, it does change the world but the magnitude is not as perceptible as you would like. A ship still lists if a fly lands on the handrail. Every action of the thoughtful consumer helps and I feel we mustn’t propagate the feeling that we cannot make a difference individually as we can, it just takes time.

Absolutely that’s why I do it but it just feels like pissing in the wind sometimes.
While the populace is indoctrinated to believe they ‘deserve’ the likes of strawberries 12months a year, holidays in autocratic regimes and so cheap as to be disposable clothes made by indentured labourers the actions of thinking consumers make a very small difference indeed.

Just to tag onto Luke (sorry)... Alot is down to education - watch this space for the plastice revolution video by Mr Fry - and had it not been for Luke once explaining how he buys his tubeless sealant made from Olives, I'd have continued happily with what I have and not needing to renew it 3 or 4 monthly.

Education is so important and now I understand a bit more about the plastic islands (thanks Duncan/PistonBroke and everyone else) I no longer feel the need to even buy a 5 or 50p plastic bag at the supermarkets. As a result of education and public pressure (maybe) CoOp have even gone to fully compostqble bags. I don't think they charge for em either and they are weak. But knowing what I kmow now I'm happy with em falling apart in just a few trips...

[redefined_cycles]

https://youtu.be/_wbL_NHR740

This is the one that finally did it for me in terms of plastic (though I've had a compost bin on and off for the past 13 years to help reduce waste)... education, education, edcuation is key I suppose...

[Lazarus]

TON there is zero chance the UK can be self sufficient its just idelaistic to think we could - I am not even sure any country could technically be self supported these days but we certainly cannot. - No cars - barely any bkemakers [ all use imports even ifit just parts and frames and be hinest you would hate having to have only one bike and no choice about it

Why should I pay £220 for a Lunar Solo when I can buy a Chinese clone for less than £100?

Ethics are not free and Lunar solo may do things like check the factory,the conditions etc
https://www.sixmoondesigns.com/pages/policies

Much of alpkit stuff is china stuff but i will take a hit as they are a decent brand trying to do good things - They can only do this if folk are willing to pay rather than just get whatever i /they can for the cheapest price and think about nothing other than the price point - which is essentially what most folk do do whether it gear or food or whatever

As for the rest i have attempted to be an ethical shopper for as long as I can remember but the reality is I can only do so much alone but collectively we are unstoppable.- for exampe if we all boycoted amazon I assure you they would pay tax and be ethical rather than loose the entire busines
However we wont as they are cheap and who cares that the workers are all GIg economy workers etc
Basically do your best its all you can do in the curent model of cheap is best

[whitestone]

Phil, that's one of the major reasons re: lamb, also different nations prefer different cuts of the carcase.

At the start of WW2 the UK imported roughly 70% of its food. With the introduction of rationing and and increase in land in food production that dropped to around 56%. The problem with getting a current figure is that different analyses give significantly different values, anywhere from 50-80%. UK Gov statistics aren't much clearer as they focus on the value of imports and exports rather than the ratio between home produced and imported of calories/amount consumed. Most sources agree that there's wastage of around 30-35%, just reducing that by half would make a big difference.

There's no reason the UK couldn't grow much of its vegetables such as tomatoes, courgettes, peppers and the like. Many of our tomatoes come from the Netherlands which isn't that much different in climate to southern England. The energy and water requirements for soft veg might make them expensive - they are grown under cover in Iceland so it is possible but they have the advantage of readily available geothermal energy to keep the cost down.

I don't think the UK has ever been completely self-sufficient in everything, even in pre-history there was trade going on.

Modern container shipping is remarkably efficient, Suez Canal blocking ships excepted, the cost of getting a container from China to the UK is* £1100, you can get a lot of stuff in a 40ft container (* correctly it was £1100, Brexit and Covid have pushed that to around £9000). The problem is really that to be that efficient the system is "fragile".

[redefined_cycles]

Basically do your best its all you can do in the curent model of cheap is best

Here here... agreed

[johnnystorm]

Looks like that's what your doing and as such I'll keep proudly buying Pinnacle gear.

I don't think James' good practice and Pinnacles ethics are connected anymore.

As for Mike Ashley's business ethics...

[redefined_cycles]

Looks like that's what your doing and as such I'll keep proudly buying Pinnacle gear.

I don't think James' good practice and Pinnacles ethics are connected anymore.

As for Mike Ashley's business ethics...

Fair enough... well whatever new posh bike business he's hopefully looking to open up. Hopefully he'll do carbon too

[AndreR]

This is something I think about a lot and one of the things I keep coming back to is that if we are successful in boycotting a brand because it is made in x county the only people to really suffer will be the people who worked at the factory. Owners and investors will simple move their money elsewhere. Yes they may take a hit but not to the extent the average worker will, and it will make them even more ruthless as they try to recoup thir losses elsewhere.

I have read accounts of people travelling accross countries like Iran and wondered why you'd do that as they are right bunch of bastards! Every account tells about how welcoming and kind and hospitable the people are despite the government being a disgusting shower. So if we don't go there, we and the people of Iran miss out on the pleasure of each other's company and finding out the truth that we aren't actually two headed baby eating fiends and if the goverment lied about this what else are they laying about? Every day people need to keep talking to everyday people from everywhere and ignoring the bollocks put about by the powers that be as its a decide and rule strategy.

The chances of making a business rethink its working practise or a political system change its ways by boycotting them is slim to zero in my opinion and the only people to feel the heat, as it were, will be the people just like us trying to earn a living and live a decent life and "play fair".

Support local business where ever possible and whenever you can afford to. They are part of the community they live in and if they don't meet the locals requirements they will go. Sadly if the locals choose cheap and dirty over ethical and a bit more expensive they will go too. The local butcher is more expensive than the supermarket but he knows the farmers he gets his meat from and has been to their farms is a good example. So eat less meat and eat better quality meat and sleep better at night.

This is more apparent in many European cultures where people buy less but buy quality and use it for far longer. Italy is full of family owned and run restaurants and I think is one of the few countries where most of the big international food chains have really struggled to get going.

I do all of the many things highlighted by the good people on here but personally feel the the biggest impact I can make is to support local business and stay away from the "chains". Not always easy or cost effective but I'm lucky enough to be able to do that as often as I possibly can.

I known its heresy to even think this but n+1 bikes is part of the problem!