Dales200

[greenmug]

All, I'm about to embark on a project to create a new long distance route in the Yorkshire Dales. This post is to get your input and experience.

The south dales are my home patch and I think there is really good scope for a cracking long distance ride that could be used for both racers and bikepackers. I'm going to take a week off late Nov to create, test and document the route.

I really want to promote the best of Dales riding and already have a rough route in mind that will be 99% rideable in all weathers (I really hate pushing).

Please give your thoughts on the following:

Distance: There seems to be an attraction to 200km for routes (BB200, Lakeland200...). Would people appreciate the same or is there demand for a longer route?

Website: should such a route have its own website or is it better to piggy back on another? (If so which). I'd like to provide folk the opportunity to post completions.

Roads & Shops: If you had to choose, which of the following would you go for:

1) Greater percentage off road
2) more road but more refuel opportunities (shops/cafés)

Other: what are the most important aspects a route should include.

Testing: Would anyone be up for testing the route. I'm thinking a group ride last weekend in November (30th/1st)? Or at some point on their own? Partly for feedback and partly to set a par time.

North Dales: does anyone with good knowledge of the top half of the Dales want to help with the route?

There is no point doing this unless riders will use it so please feedback if this is worthwhile or not. Would you take the challenge?

Ian

[FLV]

Sound great. Personally, I rather like a bit of Hike-a-Bike, but its your route and whether its there or not wouldnt deter me either way.

200km is a pretty common distance in the ITT world. There are always mentalists that smash these distances out in a remarkably short time. If you go for a non hike-a-bike route and are happy with these guys doing it in under 12 hours then it’s a really good distance. If you want to force the need for all / most to be out all night, maybe sleep out you may need to make it longer. Quite a bit.
Having said that, 200km is a good accessible distance in my opinion.

Once its ridden and verified I expect you could get it listed / linked here http://selfsupporteduk.net/

As off road as possible, at 200km it dosnt need resupply in my opinion, It might even be interesting to deliberately avoid towns and shops 

If you can find a suitable one, I also quite like the camaraderie of group starts

I might be up for trying it, it would depend on my arrangements for that weekend, not sure I can get out (kids) nut would definitely ride it at some point. Especially if like you say, its good year round.

[Ben98]

I will help, im down near keighley, but know the dales very well, i am happy to take a look at route ideas, and me and my mates (Adam and George from the bb200) will try and organize going up to do bits of it over a weekend :)

[Bearbonesnorm]

Might help or it might just muddy the water

Distance: There seems to be an attraction to 200km for routes (BB200, Lakeland200...). Would people appreciate the same or is there demand for a longer route?

I'd say the distance depends on what you're aiming for and who you're trying to attract. 200km is almost becoming a sprint distance and as Dave says can be knocked out very quickly by certain folk. If you're aiming for a bikepacky/multi-day feel then either up the distance (or turn out a very difficult route). 350km would mean at least one night out for all but the most mental If you want to showcase the area, think a 350km route that people can ride as an ITT or tour at whatever pace they like, could be a winner.

Website: should such a route have its own website or is it better to piggy back on another? (If so which). I'd like to provide folk the opportunity to post completions.

I'd second Daves suggestion of selfsupporteduk.net.

Roads & Shops: If you had to choose, which of the following would you go for:

1) Greater percentage off road
2) more road but more refuel opportunities (shops/cafés)

Depends on length but if it's 200km I don't see supply points being required.

Other: what are the most important aspects a route should include.

Ask 100 people and you'll get 50 answers ... just produce a route you'd want to ride yourself.

[Chew]

I'd probably be free that weekend if you were interested in riding it all/parts.
One thing I find about the Dales is its cracking when it's dry, but maybe a bit grim this time of year especially with all if the recient rain.

I pulled together a 200k route a few weeks back that would have started in Reeth, down through Nidderdale, up to Malham Tarn, Settle, Ribblehead, a bit of bike-a-hike over to Dent, Hawed and back to Reeth.

PM me your email and I'll send the gpx file over.

I think there's still a bit of a debate over 200k vs miles, and it may be about time to complete rather than distance. I'm expecting 2ton o'gravel to be completed in the same time as the BB200.

There's also a comparison issue. Alan set up the HTR to be comparable to the CTR.

[composite]

Distance: There seems to be an attraction to 200km for routes (BB200, Lakeland200...). Would people appreciate the same or is there demand for a longer route?

Agree with everything already stated by the others.

Roads & Shops: If you had to choose, which of the following would you go for:

1) Greater percentage off road
2) more road but more refuel opportunities (shops/cafés)

As much off road as possible but something along the lines of Aiden's philosophy for the EWE would be sensible. ie if it's the choice of a bog or a road then take the road.

Again agree with what the others said that any route that could be done in under 24hours doesn't need resupply. I quite liked the way that the BB200 didn't really have much on route and the pub and cafe would incur a greater time penalty. Similarly there was the odd detour you could take if you wanted to that would definitely incur an even larger time penalty.

Other: what are the most important aspects a route should include.

I'd rather no hike a bike, you have your bike with you why would you want to walk??? On the other hand a small amount of hike a bike wouldn't put me off.

Testing: Would anyone be up for testing the route. I'm thinking a group ride last weekend in November (30th/1st)? Or at some point on their own? Partly for feedback and partly to set a par time.

I'm up for joining a group ride that weekend but I couldn't commit until closer to the time.

There is no point doing this unless riders will use it so please feedback if this is worthwhile or not. Would you take the challenge?

A grand depart type event I would be very interested in.

[Ray Young]

Minimal re supply points, longer distance and minimal bike hike for a true multi day bikepacking ITT experience, that's the way i'd go.

[ericrobo]

It sounds good - done a lot of riding in the Dales past few years... definitely off-road as much as possible - may be able to ride end Nov or do part of it (12 hours darkness in a small tent this time of year, don't have lights ... yet)

The ride from Reeth - Settle etc. - would appreciate the gpx Chew
email is ericrobo@talktalk.net

[ericrobo]

Oh yeh, minimal hike a bike for me (old injury, fractured heel)

[BrianP]

I walked the Dale's Way in the 90's and although I thought I knew the Dales well, walking though that wonderful landscape was so memorable compared with all those car journeys to the Lakes. So I hope you do create an available bikepacking route for many people to enjoy.

From that walk I would love to see:

As much off-road as possible, I hate riding on roads, over 90% if possible.

It was great to walk from one place to another through three different landscapes, the Dales, the high Pennines, and then Lakeland. Perhaps half distance could be "somewhere" for older riders like me, and then the rest of the loop back to the start point. The Dales have softer valleys and exposed high limestone so plenty of varied landscapes to include.

So, good luck and I look forward to seeing the results.

Brian

[slarge]

Yes, lots of interest from here. A lot of the ITT routes are also popular multi day routes for those wanting to just get out there - so a route that is doable by many over 2-3 days (and somewhere around 200 - 250 miles fits this category in my book) would be great. A route doable in a single attempt tops out for most people at 150 miles.

If you could make a route that was rideable, with limited stop /start (endless gates) and good quality riding (ie. not the field edges of Warwickshire) and around 150 - 200 miles it would be a cracking challenge. And a mass start would add to the atmosphere/cameraderie.

Some option to stop over/resupply for the multi day riders, but not going through towns (for the single shots) would make it appeal to most (the TCW and BB200 etc are good examples).

[greenmug]

Thanks all for the responses so far. It is encouraging to know the route might get used once it is documented.

Balancing quality with distance and from what most people are saying, I think a good route will come in between 200 and 300 KM with a large percentage off road. Multi dayers will easily be able to divert off to the towns of Settle, Horton-in-Ribblesdale, Patley Bridge....

Chew came up with the idea of start/stop at the Dales Bike Centre near Reeth. MTB accomodation for those staying the night before and I've marshalled events there where there were 200+ entrants so it could cope with a mass start event if a handful of folk want to do it BB200 style.

http://www.dalesbikecentre.co.uk/

However, I appreciate there are many for whom getting there is a bit of a drag and somewhere off the A59 is easier. What are folk's opinion on start location? Reeth or Settle or Pateley Bridge?

Please keep the opinions and ideas coming. I'm going to work on the route over the next week or so and ride some bits on the 9th (10th) with a view to an official attempt on the 30th/1st.

So who is up for a long ride setting off earlish on the 30th November?

[composite]

I think the facilities at the start/end point are more important than the location per se. What I mean by facilities can be as er... basic as the BB200 that's fine, but it's the having same where to park and then crash out for as long as you like (no check out time) at the end of 20hours that concerns me more than if it's a bit tricky to get to to start with.

[Zippy]

I've camped with some friends at the dales bike centre for a NutcrackerMTB round, didn't think it was too bad to get to, & I live in Essex.
Watching this thread with interest, it's sounding good.

[ericrobo]

I've done a lot of riding in the Dales, my maps are plastered with rides I've done, so I'll try and concoct a route which avoids roads as much as poss, includes some interesting riding...

slight problem is that I've lost Memory Map on my PC which I used for all my researching and mapping (I lost it because Windows had to be re-installed due to those bloody stupid updates failing... Microsoft Sux)

so I'll need a few days

[greenmug]

Ericrobo, appreciate the input. With my own riding and Chews input most of the route is done on the south side so just some tweaking and extensions to make it more if a Dales300. Perhaps your knowledge would be useful as a reviewer ? Particularly some bits I haven't riden myself.

If there are any unmissable parts to the west of Reeth that would be good info.

[slarge]

One thing I forgot - there must be some sunshine on the route - the distance matters less then!

[composite]

Definitely can't make it unfortunately. I thought I was on for it but got reminded about something. :(

[ericrobo]

I've got the map out and piecing together some options... so bear with...

[ericrobo]

Here's a first shot - from Grinton, up Fremington Edge, over to Hurst Moor, loop round to Langthwaite.
From Langthwaite over to Great Pinseat (great tracks, mine workings). As you go North up to and from Little Punchard Head it becomes a bit more difficult, then it's technical ST over to William Gill - I've ridden it when dry and it is good and challenging, over peaty moor, but probably not advisable this time of year, too wet...
If the idea is to get to the Tan Hill Inn I think it would be the only way without using the road.
From Tan Hill Inn really good and interesting riding down to Muker.

I've ridden (in the other direction) Hardraw to Thwaite via Great Shunner Fell. On the way up to Great Shunner Fell (south to north) there are paving stones so I can't see a problem even when wet... and you won't see many walkers nor mtn bikers (if you get my drift... England can learn a lot from Scotland ! And I am English)

And from Hawes many different ways getting south to Settle etc.

Just tried attaching a couple of gpx's but get the following:
The extension gpx is not allowed.
Any ideas ?

[Chew]

Any ideas ?

If you could email it over that would be great.

[Bearbonesnorm]

and you won't see many walkers nor mtn bikers (if you get my drift... England can learn a lot from Scotland ! And I am English)

If you're going to open a route up as an ITT or group start make sure it's:

(a) 100 % legal with no cheeky bits. (regardless of the rights or wrongs of Englands access rights).

(b) Avoids any BW / tracks that go through farms, etc.

EDIT: just realised this ^ sounds like I'm 'having a go'. I'm not, it's just that any potential for conflict between users really needs to be avoided. There's a couple of sections on the TCW that are legal but pass very close to farms which has resulted in a 'spot of bother' on a few occasions.

[ericrobo]

Good points Stu...

Chew - what's your email address pls ?

[Matt]

Interested.

The Dales are ace and I'd love to do something like this.

[ianfitz]

I may well be interested in an outing on the 30th. Think I can persuade a friend along too. I'd like the gpx when finalised.

I have zero knowledge of the area so no input to offer on route choice. Other than a preference for a mix of riding styles like the bb200 is good. Variety is always welcome - to a point. :) That said by comparison to the bb200 I wouldnt object to slightly less very steep hills and pushing downhill at the end of the route....