Sonder Transmitter Carbon: How strong is it again!

[redefined_cycles]

Firstly, the conflict of interest is that I'm currently in the middle of getting a crash replacement frame from Sonder after mine came apart. They told me that 'it appears to have been crash damage'. With which I'm fine but the reason for this 'dremel-up' wasn't to prove a point. Rather it was to confirm whether I would be confident in investing some more dosh into another frame. Answer being, 'I am' but that doesn't mean I won't send them my findings here

Right, now that's out of the way, I needed to check how strong this thing actually was and had it been built by experts like Sonder are proud to claim. I reckon, yes, but the one weak spot is whats done me over. Such is life... Over to the actual cut up and smash...

Tools used and/or wasted:

Hammer (my dads vintage)

Dremel (from the 2000s)

Cutting blades: various but I'd say over 10 trashed/worn through

Irwin carbon saw with a spare blade (both trashed now)

Lightweight walking approach shoes: Arcteryx (to stand on off course when it wouldn't give)

1 mask, pair of gloves and some specs.

Time taken: over 3 hours


Did I say how strong it is. Stronger than an Ox I'd say but everything has a weak spot I guess


I found no voids or delamination. Superb build quality and some slight creases where the bladder would have been I guess. Very very very neat work.


Reinforced in all the right places with extra carbon behind the bottle rivnuts and extra thick layering and properly compacted at the seatpost/seatstay junction.


That (seatstay/seattube) junction is where I had to think outta the box as I didn't manage to cut through it properly. So had to resort to some yanking it apart. The shrapnel that can be seen is from me and the brute force that messed up the fibres. Otherwise, wonderful workmanship.


Due to the aformentioned junction I didn't actually manage to undo one side of the toptube from the other. But you can see its just as clean a layering-up under there.

The bit where mine failed was the bridge between the chain and seatstay where the mech hanger goes. Obviously I couldn't test the strength here but I could the other side. Theory (mine) being that maybe the mech came back on itself when it jammed in the chain. Hit the bridge that failed later by having a weak spot created there.


So I whacked the opposite side 'good' bridge -finger showing the impact point - to test the strength after impact. It didn't break so I used the 'lets stand on it test'. Thankfully the beidge was strong enough that it didn't fail at the bit that'd taken the impact.


Instead it broke here, perfectly reasonable after being stood on by a big boned bloke.


This last pic being of the original failure.

Conclusion
It's one heck of a strong frame. Rides nice too. Probably would take 'jumping' in it's stride and much stronger than it's 1200g weight would have you believe.

Would I be confident buying again and knowing what i know now... Yes, defo and i look forward to building another. Congrats to anyone else that owns a Sonder too. Thankfully yours (well most are alu and ti right!) being non-carbon means you shouldn't have trouble ever with the warranty dept. 1200g frames come with their downsides I suppose...

[stevewaters]

Thanks Shaf !
My Sonder Transmitter Carbon (Large) is my MTB / Bikepacking bike.
It has done over 4,000 miles including most of the big UK bike-packing routes (HT550, Lakeland 300 etc.)
The only damage was inflicted by me causing cable rub at the head tube due to having the harness too tight when I did the HT550 - it "sawed" a 1 cm hole which I subsequently got repaired.
I am 13 Stone and a reasonably aggressive rider.
Very re-assuring to see what you found.

[redefined_cycles]

Thanks Steve. Mine was a very unfortunate case I guess and 'one of them things'. Thiw morning after the missus forced me to bin all the 'research' bits,e and Abdurrahman (6) took it out and I challenged him to stamp on one of the stays or other parts and try and break it.

I tried too and between us we just couldn't smash it (stomping being put on to try and simulate a massive rock being thrown at it sideways). We just couldn't do it and conceded. Well done them I guess though I'm not happy at my current outcome

[Alpinum]

Without knowing how many carbon frames you had the 'joy' of smashing about, you might be surprised (positively) to find that most offroad carbon frames will take much more of a beating (the kind of beating carbon knowingly doesn't like) than expected.

Every carbon frame I was able to jump on, whack with a hammer and other tools or crash myself into boulders and other objects coped with loads and repeated brute force on all 'tubes'.

It seems that carbon is a suitable material for frames

I found no voids or delamination. Superb build quality and some slight creases where the bladder would have been I guess. Very very very neat work.

Hard to tell (voids/delamination) by just looking at it or running over the wall with your fingers.
Voids can be very, very thin and some can only be detected by running CT scans and someone who knows exactly how to read the CT results.
Whilst it's hard to say what kind of effect the creases have on the structural integrity (distortion of flux), it's the first time I've seen them...

The carbon frames sold by Alpkit could long before be bought for much less at alibaba.
The exactly same frames, all of them. The only difference I believe in is Alpkit's warranty and service.
Ever seen the first KHS fatbike carbon frames? The fatbike Sonder thing was just that (different colour and label) and very likely made by KHS. Got my fatbike rims from that factory and they really have proved their worth with large loads on a long and not smooth ride.

Perhaps it's just another carbon MTB frame.


The force which can be put into parts when riding is mind boggling. I've cracked, twisted and bent parts and frames, I couldn't even get wiggling when not riding, no matter hoe much I jumped around, levered and hammered. Yet one ride with a sketchy moment and the brute force... bike gore.

[redefined_cycles]

Thanks for that Gian... Yes, I've managed to not smash carbon about that much. Wheels mainly with a bigger hammer (Dura Ace when they've worn out). I was expecting it to give me a hard time and it did indeed

Alibaba you say Oh well... Maybe I should just be sensible and go straight to the Pipedream lot...

[Alpinum]

Sorry Shaf for having the naivety that you didn't know about that.

And what might have not come through is I too am baffled by the force carbon can deal with. Especially forces the design wasn't meant to cope with well (like smashing it with an axe).

Maybe I should just be sensible and go straight to the Pipedream lot...

got me
Just about to ride some 15 min home on my ... Surly...

Currently listening to NIN Ghost VI but thinking of this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU9i3JgtTG8

[redefined_cycles]

Sorry Shaf for having the naivety that you didn't know about that.

And what might have not come through is I too am baffled by the force carbon can deal with. Especially forces the design wasn't meant to cope with well (like smashing it with an axe).

Maybe I should just be sensible and go straight to the Pipedream lot...

got me
Just about to ride some 15 min home on my ... Surly...

Currently listening to NIN Ghost VI but thinking of this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU9i3JgtTG8

Thanks Gian... i actually didn't know about the alibaba frames looking/being the same ones. Very interesting and hopefully this new crash replacement will behave properly... so far I'm back on steel and alu again...

[ScotRoutes]

Shaf - repeat the above with an aluminium frame

[FLV]

Thanks Gian... i actually didn't know about the alibaba frames looking/being the same ones. Very interesting and hopefully this new crash replacement will behave properly... so far I'm back on steel and alu again...

Hi Shaf.
I personally wouldnt spend too much time fretting over which frame material is more likely to break.
The only materials I've broken in recent years is steel. One fatigue crack, one caused by an initial impact in the haz. Both likely unlucky.

Yes steel can be repaired, but I recall a generous charity ti stooge being repaired recently and steve just stated he repaired his carbon. Aluminium can also be repaired (yes you need a good repair outfit, but why would anyone use a bad one )

I personally have seen issues with 'off the shelf' frames due to quality issues on the product's, such as poor tolerances. But theres too many factors to generalise this in reality, and it is a way to lower prices.

In summary, dont worry. Get what you fancy, ride it and hope for the best as the worst probably wont happen. Or maybe it will

[johnnystorm]

Two great videos that are probably still out there on the web somewhere comparing carbon and alloy.

One was Mike Burrows using a machine to wallop carbon and alloy frames. Up to a point the carbon frame just soaked up the repeated hits while the alloy frame gradually succumbed to the abuse. The other was more recent and Santa Cruz designers demonstrating their carbon frames took more force to rip apart.

Neither of those covered the aspect that worries me most, abrasion!

I'm a bit surprised to hear the transmitter can be found on Alibaba. The design aped the alloy one quite closely which itself seemed quite distinct. That and the generic frames aren't usually that progressive with their geometry.

[jameso]

Another video is Rivendell's 'Fork Wars' : )

Did similar in the workshop once. Carbon can be impressively strong and can also be taken apart in one hit. Depends on the structure, some resins will help, some layups or shell layers also. Not all carbon structures are equal that's for sure.

That and the generic frames aren't usually that progressive with their geometry.

Many Chinese carbon makers are more canny than we might think when it comes to knowing which geometries to copy and the lead time from CAD to mold to frames for sale isn't that long, while prog LLS geo has been around for years now.

[slarge]

I'm impressed it has to be said - on 2 counts: the Sonder frame (whether it's Sonder or Alibaba) looks pretty robust (if you ignore the initial break), and also Shaf's persistence in taking it apart - although I guess at least now it will fit in a wheely bin

As said above, abrasion is a key factor in the life of some frames - especially for the average bikepacker - but I think most abrasion damage is to some extent user error (or at least failure to protect the frame adequately)

[redefined_cycles]

Shaf - repeat the above with an aluminium frame

Colin.... Alu and I'd have gotten it into little pieces without a dremel and probably within an hour or half...

[Mart]

Hi Shaf
most interesting and great to see and quite reassuring for any good quality carbon frame owner

Did you have any wear points from rubbage (like cables) at all
I would be interested to see what he integrity is like around those sort of points
I don’t have any rub points yet, but I guess it’s only a matter of time

Cheers
Mart

[redefined_cycles]

Hi Shaf
most interesting and great to see and quite reassuring for any good quality carbon frame owner

Did you have any wear points from rubbage (like cables) at all
I would be interested to see what he integrity is like around those sort of points
I don’t have any rub points yet, but I guess it’s only a matter of time

Cheers
Mart

Mart.. the only wear points I had were about a 1mm deep inside the chainstays from wheelrub (dirty mud, despicable it is). There wasn't a single bit that was a weak section IMO and the thinnest tube was probably the top tube. It still gave my dremel a super hard time and that was using a variety of blades... reinforced, extra strong, standard, extra thick.

I've sent one of the chainstays to Cheeky Monkey as a scroll. Hopefully he might input how many blows it takes to shatter it. I'm gonna guess his arm might start hurting.

Just on contrast, I've had a couple of hairline cracked or shattered road frames come through my hands and also have always done the 'how many hits with a hammer' on my steerer tube cutoffs... never found something that's performed this well.

In fact, seeing how strong it is, I'm rather sad that Sonder didn't entertain my warranty further. Especially since I chose them carefully for buying my first full price mtb frame...

The roadie frames were...

a chinese carbon aero with rubbish tolerances and geometry. Former keeper hated it.

A cervelo aero frame which I reckon I could have took apart with my dads lump hammer (sadly he nabbed it back or I've lost it). Please, nobody should ever buy a Cervelo, the thieving so n so's... I think it was eitherMoots or Enigma who tookit off me viaebay auuction to practice their carbon frame repair skills etc...

Last one was a Giant Defy Advanced with super thin stays and a hairline crack. Which thankfully I noticed before fleabaying. Had been involved in a chain failure that had caused a crack at the seattube on one of the 2 'worlds highest road climbs' (Thailand I think was the one the owner had gone for).

He'd successfully had it epoxy repaired out there from a shop and continued using (according to him). Another one that I doubt would have given me this much grief cutting and smashing it (pure speculation on my part)...

[Alpinum]

Many Chinese carbon makers are more canny than we might think when it comes to knowing which geometries to copy

The carbon frames sold by Alpkit could long before be bought for much less at alibaba.
The exactly same frames, all of them. The only difference I believe in is Alpkit's warranty and service.
Ever seen the first KHS fatbike carbon frames? The fatbike Sonder thing was just that (different colour and label) and very likely made by KHS

Not about copying, more about many western companies going on a shopping trip, give it a fancy paint job and a cool name and sell for 3 - 8 x the price and give you some sorts of warranty. I'm fine with that, I rather pay a bit more and have a company like Alpkit stand behind their product with their great (in my experience) customer service. The only thing that I find quite boring is the so often claimed "we designed (insert marketing gibberish)" myth.

I personally wouldnt spend too much time fretting over which frame material is more likely to break.
The only materials I've broken in recent years is steel. One fatigue crack, one caused by an initial impact in the haz. Both likely unlucky.

Similar experience here. More steel and alu frames damaged than carbon.
Same for parts.
Do I believe carbon to be superior for all applications? No.

You can't really blame road frames for being delicate towards impacts.

[redefined_cycles]

Gian... agreed

If you get a minute you couldn't see if you can find me the equivalent at AB could you and PM me a link. I'm seriously considering it if it saves me some money and is 27.5+ (so less extra spending to get it going...

More for market research purposes

[Alpinum]

find me the equivalent at AB

Welcome to 2021.
I'm not going to look for a frame in the depths of the many resellers found on Ali that was produced half a decade ago. Good luck and success to you.

A good bet is ICAN and KHS. They're the 'origin' of many relabelled carbon frames.
Topcarbontech used to make frames with a rather unique seat post collar, but I'm sure they long since moved on to different molds.
Some small brands relabel frames from these factories and have had great experience with the build quality.

[redefined_cycles]

find me the equivalent at AB

Welcome to 2021.
I'm not going to look for a frame in the depths of the many resellers found on Ali that was produced half a decade ago. Good luck and success to you.

A good bet is ICAN and KHS. They're the 'origin' of many relabelled carbon frames.
Topcarbontech used to make frames with a rather unique seat post collar, but I'm sure they long since moved on to different molds.
Some small brands relabel frames from these factories and have had great experience with the build quality.

Thanks Gian... Yes, I explored ICAN (but not KHS). I'll try and have a brief look and, in light of your latest message, most likely just stick with the Sonder from them...

Thanks again everyone and hope my cut up/smash fest might help someone for future generations

[techno]

find me the equivalent at AB

Welcome to 2021.
I'm not going to look for a frame in the depths of the many resellers found on Ali that was produced half a decade ago. Good luck and success to you.

A good bet is ICAN and KHS. They're the 'origin' of many relabelled carbon frames.
Topcarbontech used to make frames with a rather unique seat post collar, but I'm sure they long since moved on to different molds.
Some small brands relabel frames from these factories and have had great experience with the build quality.

Thanks Gian... Yes, I explored ICAN (but not KHS). I'll try and have a brief look and, in light of your latest message, most likely just stick with the Sonder from them...

Thanks again everyone and hope my cut up/smash fest might help someone for future generations

Alex pilkington uses promance frames for his fatster bike. Just to further muddy the water

[redefined_cycles]

find me the equivalent at AB

Welcome to 2021.
I'm not going to look for a frame in the depths of the many resellers found on Ali that was produced half a decade ago. Good luck and success to you.

A good bet is ICAN and KHS. They're the 'origin' of many relabelled carbon frames.
Topcarbontech used to make frames with a rather unique seat post collar, but I'm sure they long since moved on to different molds.
Some small brands relabel frames from these factories and have had great experience with the build quality.

Thanks Gian... Yes, I explored ICAN (but not KHS). I'll try and have a brief look and, in light of your latest message, most likely just stick with the Sonder from them...

Thanks again everyone and hope my cut up/smash fest might help someone for future generations

Alex pilkington uses promance frames for his fatster bike. Just to further muddy the water

Got a link please Techno sir... the 1200g is one of the most appealing factors and knocking it about was to ensure its not a softie (like some roadies-frames that are only q couple hundred grams lower).

Something tells me I should cut up and smash the Boardman also (900g)... Market research and it has the little discrepancy on the toptube... reselling value once you have a 'stub' like that always drops dramatically...

[jameso]

Shafiq, I'd be careful with Alibaba for frames. While there's a lot to be said in favour of good carbon there's still a lot of stuff out there that I wouldn't ride (on lack of trust rather than facts, but imo it's for a factory to prove they make something good not for me to accept all carbon is ok). Some of the better-reputed makers I know of don't let their product get sold on ebay/alibaba so it's not a bad plan to look for a Planet X, Dolan etc type of company bringing them in, or there are forums covering open mold bikes to give an idea of factory rep (Boardmans have a good rep as far as I'm aware).

Not about copying, more about many western companies going on a shopping trip, give it a fancy paint job and a cool name and sell for 3 - 8 x the price and give you some sorts of warranty.

Yeah, fine with that here if the research/QC has been done. It can be a brand specs it without paying the mold costs on the basis they get eg US market and the manufacturer can sell into Europe via catalogue frames, or the guys in the carbon frame factory R+D making something direct for the catalogue where they either copy most of a popular bike or average some popular bike/brand numbers. That also happens within western brands oc and there are some good rider-designers working at carbon frame producers too, hard to tell which ones but they are out there.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Just as a little 'inset', within motorsport, it's generally considered that carbon can absorb 5x the impact energy that aluminium can before destruction. Obviously this assumes that the carbon part is built well.

[techno]

find me the equivalent at AB

Welcome to 2021.
I'm not going to look for a frame in the depths of the many resellers found on Ali that was produced half a decade ago. Good luck and success to you.

A good bet is ICAN and KHS. They're the 'origin' of many relabelled carbon frames.
Topcarbontech used to make frames with a rather unique seat post collar, but I'm sure they long since moved on to different molds.
Some small brands relabel frames from these factories and have had great experience with the build quality.

Thanks Gian... Yes, I explored ICAN (but not KHS). I'll try and have a brief look and, in light of your latest message, most likely just stick with the Sonder from them...

Thanks again everyone and hope my cut up/smash fest might help someone for future generations

Alex pilkington uses promance frames for his fatster bike. Just to further muddy the water

Got a link please Techno sir... the 1200g is one of the most appealing factors and knocking it about was to ensure its not a softie (like some roadies-frames that are only q couple hundred grams lower).

Something tells me I should cut up and smash the Boardman also (900g)... Market research and it has the little discrepancy on the toptube... reselling value once you have a 'stub' like that always drops dramatically...

https://fatsterbike.com/
https://pro-mance.en.alibaba.com/company_profile.html

[redefined_cycles]

Thanks Andy... I reckon I'm already intent on another Santa Cruz. Just need to do some more reading on how legendary their warranty actually is. Always thought Alpkits 'blurge' about 'alpine bond' and all that mash-potato meant they were legendary. They might be, but not for me