Improving Bikepacking

[Chew]

3) perhaps a website where experienced types take new riders out - i am not sure how many on here would volunteer for this as there are likely insurance and legal implications of this re the route and where you camp for those who are not in Scotland

We already have one of those
Bring a packet of Jaffa Cakes and a sense of humour and most people on here will let someone new tag along for a night out.
Its like the old fashioned cycling/climbing clubs where the older experienced guys would pass their knowledge onto the new ones.

you may find that responses from This Place focus much more on "state of mind" rather than physical equipment

This is the key barrier
Very few people like to open themselves up to the chaos of adventure.

Its getting people to the point where they can open their mind to coping/adapting to the unexpected and having the confidence/ability/experience to deal with those situations.
Most of that comes from just getting out there and taking a few risks. We’ve all made mistakes and things have gone wrong, but as Tim says
"... the worst trips make the best stories ..."
A bit of type 2 fun never hurt anyone

Part of it is also peoples perception of having to “achieve” something.
The best trips I’ve had have just been about winging it
No objective and no goal, apart from just having fun.

Most of the barriers come from fear
What if I get lost? – Learn the skills to get unlost
What if my bike breaks? – Learn the skills to fix/bodge it
What if an axe murderer finds me in the middle of the night? – Which is a non-existence risk but prevents lots of people getting out on their own.


Theres also the definition of what Bikepacking is.
You’ll get as many options as people you ask, but do a bit of research around the RSF Archive and the guys riding across Australia in the 1900’s, to see the history/origins.

[RIP]

3) perhaps a website where experienced types take new riders out

We already have one of those

chaos of adventure.

Ooh, I love that phrase . Badge please Stu .

Lots of other brilliant skills/learning/knowledge type of points there obv Chew . But we're still back to the problem of whether "the industry" can help with those apart from offering courses...

[Bearbonesnorm]

But we're still back to the problem of whether "the industry" can help with those apart from offering courses...

I'm not convinced the industry really has much of a part to play Reg. As you said previously, telling people to simply go out with what they have may lead to increased sales in the future but is the industry that long-sighted?

I'd also raise the question of and I'm playing Devil's advocate here ... why are we arsed? Why would any of us want to encourage people to go bikepacking? Following the scenes over summer, should we not be putting people off and trying to convince them to stay inside? Have we not all arrived at this point from different directions but down the same path? That path still exists and is in fact clearer than ever, does it need repaving?

[RIP]

why are we arsed?

Fair point. Mrs P's told me I've got to go and make tea (*) anyway .

(*) the northern mealtime variety, not the drink

[Mythste]

I genuinely worry about where I'm going to sleep. The idea that I can be moved on at any point during the evening - no matter how remote the chances and how sensible I might be!

I'm sure it's something that experience will teach me. I have many years or touring under my belt so planning ahead for a number of possible official camp sites is something I'm very used to, but that means that my days journey will end at a predetermined spot. I love the romantic notion that my journey will end where it ends, not where there is a patch of grass I'm allowed to pay for.

But still i have the fear!

[Bearbonesnorm]

But still i have the fear!

Do you think there's anything that might ease that fear other than just doing it more?

[Mythste]

But still i have the fear!

Do you think there's anything that might ease that fear other than just doing it more?

Moving to Scotland or somewhere were I might have half a leg to stand on!

[Chew]

Moving to Scotland or somewhere were I might have half a leg to stand on!

But out of all the the nights we’ve all had out, how many instances have we been asked to move on?
I’m suggesting it few/nil instances from the 1,000’s of nights we’ve collectively had out.

Just say you’re Mike from Bromsgrove

[RIP]

Just say you’re Mike from Bromsgrove

"asked to move on". None. But a few close shaves and "interesting" encounters .

In fact thinking about it, I've actually been asked to stay on a few occasions! A football pitch, a village green (twice), a graveyard, a disused conservatory....

[woodsmith]

As someone who spends far too much time flicking endlessly between Reddit and Instagram its clear that hashtag (shudder) bikepacking now means almost any activity which happens to include a bicycle as part of the process so perhaps some definition wouldn't go amiss.

As for improving bikepacking, I can't see that it needs it. Better education of the general public on LNTand better land access like Scotland are things I'd welcome far more than yet another wheel standard or 13 speed cassettes.

Maybe its an age thing but I'm old enough to have been influenced by my parents and grandparents post-war attitude of just getting on with it and using whatever was at hand. I'm far more worried of looking like "All the gear , no idea" than I am of looking like rank amateur. Perhaps for some younger people the opposite may be true.

[Mythste]

Moving to Scotland or somewhere were I might have half a leg to stand on!

But out of all the the nights we’ve all had out, how many instances have we been asked to move on?
I’m suggesting it few/nil instances from the 1,000’s of nights we’ve collectively had out.

Just say you’re Mike from Bromsgrove

Oh for sure, I have wild camped in England a few times and in all instances, not seen another soul, let alone been bothered by one. Buuuuut, doesn't seem to stop me aiming for campsites just to be on the safe side.

I'm sure it's a time and experience thing, but silly rules don't help.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Just say you’re Mike from Bromsgrove

"Hi, I'm Mike. Mike from Bromsgrove" uttered by a man stood outside his tent wearing only his underpants at 1am worked surprisingly well

[ScotRoutes]

I'd also raise the question of and I'm playing Devil's advocate here ... why are we arsed? Why would any of us want to encourage people to go bikepacking? Following the scenes over summer, should we not be putting people off and trying to convince them to stay inside? Have we not all arrived at this point from different directions but down the same path? That path still exists and is in fact clearer than ever, does it need repaving?

Without the guidance and encouragement I got as a kid, it's perfectly possible I'd not have discovered and enjoyed all that I do now. I think that has made me a better person. I think it's right that others should get the same opportunity and have the encouragement and education to make the most of it.

I also think it's generally a good thing that folk get outdoors, discover what it's like, see the wildlife, the land, the tracks, meet the people who live there. That's just an increase in understanding of the environment outside the towns and cities that most live in. That then makes them more likely to understand and support many rural/environmental issues than they otherwise might. For instance, you might not give a toss about some Sea Eagle relocation project and quibble about the money it receives, until you actually see one in the wild. The same applies to issues such as litter management, fire pits, chopping live trees etc.

[Cheddar Man]

I think having cheaper crucifixes, silver bullets and Holy Water would help with people's anxieties about the supernatural beasts that actually do live in the wilds. A couple of interesting documentaries on that side of things are 'An American Werewolf in London', or 'Van Helsing'.

Seriously though, I think the biggest barrier is what is between someones ears. Whoever said earlier about just go with what you have is spot on. Cycle for an hour or two, sleep out, cycle home. Build up from there.

[ScotRoutes]

I think having cheaper crucifixes, silver bullets and Holy Water would help with people's anxieties about the supernatural beasts that actually do live in the wilds. A couple of interesting documentaries on that side of things are 'An American Werewolf in London', or 'Van Helsing'.

All beginners level.

You only really qualify once you've watched Dog Soldiers.

(re-released later this month in 4K - https://youtu.be/PQ6nNs0Wl7s)

[jameso]

As you said previously, telling people to simply go out with what they have may lead to increased sales in the future but is the industry that long-sighted?

Advocacy and growing future market, hopefully with an eye on sustainability, is something good brands often do. Swift Campout. Salsa's bikepacker support. Revelate's financial support of WTF Bikexplorers and Bikepacking Roots. Etc. The good part of the industry is long-sighted as it's their future too. The DGAS side of the industry will move on to whatever's next and not support that either.
But from a not-industry POV I get the 'why would we?' point. I think it's good to share though, and better to share values that avoid badly-placed campfires all over IG or rubbish and sub standard left at sites. However many people there are enjoying bike touring of some form it will be a small minority who get out on the more remote off-road routes or plan their own routes, etc.

I genuinely worry about where I'm going to sleep. The idea that I can be moved on at any point during the evening - no matter how remote the chances and how sensible I might be!

Improve Bikepacking - develop portable perimeter fences, Sentry IEDs?
But a hopefully more useful - I almost always bivi or use a small tarp, not a tent. I think that helps. I've been woken up by Spanish police flashlight in my face, a random farmer out with his dog and a chap driving his landrover past on a byway who stopped. It wasn't a problem, might make you jump a bit at first that's all. I just said I was out riding a long way and needed some rest. They can see you're not causing trouble and a promise to be gone before light, no trace, and "thanks" seems to be OK.

[jameso]

Part of it is also peoples perception of having to “achieve” something.
The best trips I’ve had have just been about winging it
No objective and no goal, apart from just having fun.

Most of the barriers come from fear
What if I get lost? – Learn the skills to get unlost
What if my bike breaks? – Learn the skills to fix/bodge it
What if an axe murderer finds me in the middle of the night? – Which is a non-existence risk but prevents lots of people getting out on their own.

So, so true. Freedom from structure and freedom from fear.

[Bearbonesnorm]

And the rabbit hole opens .... I believe many fears people harbour are a result of said freedom.

[whitestone]

I'd say education on how to act in the countryside as a first step. Promote the LNT principles amongst others.

Secondly make bivouacking (AKA wild camping) legal in England and Wales.

[Cheeky Monkey]

Seriously though, I think the biggest barrier is what is between someones ears. Whoever said earlier about just go with what you have is spot on. Cycle for an hour or two, sleep out, cycle home. Build up from there.

Amen brother

[benconnolli]

I won't go into the specifics but bikepacking has had a truly transformative affect on me. As well as an escape and coping mechanism it has fostered my problem solving attitude and awareness of nature which has impacted my eco lifestyle and activism. It would feel so selfish to not want other people to benefit as I have. Not as if I own any of it, even if I did then it would be darned hypocritical to use that as an excuse.

I was fortunate to skip the fear early on by being blissfully oblivious and invincibly arrogant. By sharing my positive experiences on here, and on Facebook I have got a few people into it. Having someone to hold their hand and show them that those fears are actually fine got them over that big first step. It is just that first step into the unknown really. Let's assume that you have convinced people of the positives by whatever means, all that is left is removing the barriers.

Almost any amount of wry grins and utterances of "it'll all be fine" from people who've done it mean nothing compared to having done it for yourself and realise the reality. Making people aware that starting bikepacking smal, safe, and local would probably be the most effective way to reduce the size of that first step and get them believing they could do it, because they can.

I am unsure how oblivious people are to leave no trace or looking after their well-being enough to not be a liability to mountain rescue. Observational bias means you only notice the failures, but the more time I spend immersed in nature the more I want to protect it. Similarly with looking after myself and survival skills. Get people out and they will join your side.

I say this from an experienced view in bikepacking and also applying this attitude to dreaming about wild swimming, which I could do with that fear removing hand to pull me in.

[songololo]

As a middle-aged male (guilty as charged) who is currently in the process of switching from traditional cycle touring to trips of the bikepacking variety... I disagree (in a friendly middle-aged sort of way) with a lot of the sentiment expressed here.

It is somewhat fashionable to say 'just take what you have / make it work / improvise / get out and ride / middle-aged men are tough' but I think that this only really holds true for people that have built up a stash of equipment and experience about what works. Sure, if you have an old mountain bike frame you could scratch together a setup that works but you still need some sort of frame bags and other forms of equipment and spares. None of this is going to be feasible for a 20 year old urbanite whose only bike is a rusted and ill-fitting single speed with half flat skinny tires. Imagine seeing someone with a setup like that heading out on your favourite bikepacking trail, complete with shopping bags hanging off the handlebars, no breathable waterproofs, bags of chips for food, and trying to use their mobile phone for directions with no signal to be found.

There are very real barriers to entry and these may be fairly acute for younger folk / inexperienced cyclists / inexperienced campers. A lot of this comes down to unknowns. How do you plan for a trip when you don't know what you don't know? Will I find somewhere to sleep? What happens if I get soaking wet and cold? What if my bike breaks in the middle of nowhere? Is it safe? What if my bike gets stolen while I sleep?

Yes, there are solutions but the solutions are hard to come by if you don't already have some form of pre-existent experience and confidence. The reality is that finding these answers as someone new to bikepacking can be very time-consuming and potentially expensive. Figuring out what kind of bike frame might be suitable, understanding what kind of equipment to bring for spares, food, warmth, sleeping; what kind of frame bags to get; do I need a GPS, which one? Flat tires? Emergencies? It takes a lot of thought and planning and this is very difficult without access to someone in the know.

I think the other thing taken for granted is that middle-aged sorts have more disposable income than the younger crowd and, again, if starting from scratch, bikepacking is not cheap.

So, in short, I'd argue that the barriers are real:

1) Access to knowledge - who to ask for advice? This is where some sort of buddy-system could really help newcomers. Not just hitting the trail but also in the planning stages. How does it work? What kind of frame? etc. etc. I suspect a lot more people would adopt bikepacking if they had access to people that can provide this information in a friendly and non-judgmental way. And show them the ropes. A lot can be learned through absorption from experienced riders.

2) Access to cheap second hand equipment. I suspect a lot of younger people that would love to bike pack do not have much disposable income. Access to some or another non-posh second-hand stash of equipment. Maybe donations of old / unused equipment to some sort of second hand venue. A bit like donation-based urban bike stores that help newcomers to cycling build and maintain bicycles.

3) Some sort of venue to encourage people to try out bikepacking on borrowed beaten-up old equipment without having to invest heavily just to try it out. This may plant the seed and then if people are more confident and excited about it they may find the motivation to research and build-out their own setup.

4) Events targeted to newcomers, maybe a yearly ride for newcomers where they are paired up with experienced riders for an overnighter but where everyone sleeps in a communal camp-site so that safety, male / female issues don't arise. Camp fire, discussions about bikepacking trips, presentations for how to setup a bivy, how to pack and cook suitable food, water safety, selecting campsites, etc.

[Charliecres]

I think the Girls Riding Into Tomorrow thing co-run by Lael Wilcox addresses a lot of what’s been expressed by others here

https://youtu.be/LZF7ZNE1bLc

[jameso]

On 'getting into bikepacking' - I'm not sure many people will start from scratch, they'll either have a bike and try some touring, or be into the outdoors and have some gear already. There's no easy way into it from a base of no bike or hike experience and I think that's where glamping-cycling or B+B touring comes in. It's more of a step by step thing?

That's where Scotroute's point on introductions and mentorship is so valid I think. Climbing has a strong culture of 'showing them the ropes' and that's how I got into it. I'm very grateful to someone for that.
I think this is something that happens naturally among groups who ride together, plus 'figuring it out yourself' is what most of us do, then learn more from others in groups once more confident. If you don't have that group to ride with and aren't confident going out solo* though, I suppose going to a climbing wall or easy crag with others to learn basic skills is easier socially than 'Hey, anyone want to come and sleep in the woods with me?'

*arguably that's the litmus test of whether it's for you anyway.

[Cheeky Monkey]

As a middle-aged male (guilty as charged) who is currently in the process of switching from traditional cycle touring trips of the bikepacking variety... I disagree (in a friendly middle-aged sort of way) with a lot of the sentiment expressed here.

It is somewhat fashionable to say 'just take what you have / make it work / improvise / get out and ride / middle-aged men are tough' but I think that this only really holds true for people that have built up a stash of equipment and experience about what works.

It's not a "fashion" thing, more about a reflection of reality. It assumes people have bikes and some basic outdoors kit but that's all. As for MaM being tough It's more about not letting your (predominantly) unfounded fears stop you from going out and doing something pretty simple (ride a bit, stop, eat / drink, sleep, get up, ride).

Sure, if you have an old mountain bike frame you could scratch together a setup that works but you still need some sort of frame bags and other forms of equipment and spares. None of this is going to be feasible for a 20 year old urbanite whose only bike is a rusted and ill-fitting single speed with half flat skinny tires. Imagine seeing someone with a setup like that heading out on your favourite bikepacking trail, complete with shopping bags hanging off the handlebars, no breathable waterproofs, bags of chips for food, and trying to use their mobile phone for directions with no signal to be found.

It's fine. They'll at least be having a go and learning / experiencing. You don't have to go far or somewhere spectacular at first. The great thing is that on a bike it is very easy to go-local but quickly and efficiently end up somewhere a bit more remote that's fine to stop overnight (arrive late, leave early).

There are very real barriers to entry and these may be fairly acute for younger folk / inexperienced cyclists / inexperienced campers. A lot of this comes down to unknowns. How do you plan for a trip when you don't know what you don't know? Will I find somewhere to sleep? What happens if I get soaking wet and cold? What if my bike breaks in the middle of nowhere? Is it safe? What if my bike gets stolen while I sleep?

These are fears, and often unfounded or highly unlikely to be realised. Again, start local / small. I doubt anyone is going to start with the off road LEJOG.

Yes, there are solutions but the solutions are hard to come by if you don't already have some form of pre-existent experience and confidence. The reality is that finding these answers as someone new to bikepacking can be very time-consuming and potentially expensive. Figuring out what kind of bike frame might be suitable, understanding what kind of equipment to bring for spares, food, warmth, sleeping; what kind of frame bags to get; do I need a GPS, which one? Flat tires? Emergencies? It takes a lot of thought and planning and this is very difficult without access to someone in the know.

If someone is keen then all they need to do is read a few online articles and ask the odd question. That will give them enough to get out. If it all goes Pete Tong then you sack it, or you get cold and wet and have a rubbish night, from which some will learn and others will sack it.

This was the Shug vid' I was watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI0B20DwLPU&t=0s Just exchange "bikepacking" for "hammocking", sort of

I think the other thing taken for granted is that middle-aged sorts have more disposable income than the younger crowd and, again, if starting from scratch, bikepacking is not cheap.

It's only expensive if you want to make it so or convince yourself that you have to have "the gear". I'm assuming no-one is starting from scratch and that any "starter" is already a "bike rider" of some sort.

So, in short, I'd argue that the barriers are real:

1) Access to knowledge - who to ask for advice? This is where some sort of buddy-system could really help newcomers. Not just hitting the trail but also in the planning stages. How does it work? What kind of frame? etc. etc. I suspect a lot more people would adopt bikepacking if they had access to people that can provide this information in a friendly and non-judgmental way. And show them the ropes. A lot can be learned through absorption from experienced riders.

Type "bikepacking" into google. Ask questions on forums. Or maybe one day Stu will finish his book

2) Access to cheap second hand equipment. I suspect a lot of younger people that would love to bike pack do not have much disposable income. Access to some or another non-posh second-hand stash of equipment. Maybe donations of old / unused equipment to some sort of second hand venue. A bit like donation-based urban bike stores that help newcomers to cycling build and maintain bicycles.

Again, it comes down to the assumption you need all the gear. If you can afford a bike enough basic gear is going to be a small spend in comparison.

3) Some sort of venue to encourage people to try out bikepacking on borrowed beaten-up old equipment without having to invest heavily just to try it out. This may plant the seed and then if people are more confident and excited about it they may find the motivation to research and build-out their own setup.

4) Events targeted to newcomers, maybe a yearly ride for newcomers where they are paired up with experienced riders for an overnighter but where everyone sleeps in a communal camp-site so that safety, male / female issues don't arise. Camp fire, discussions about bikepacking trips, presentations for how to setup a bivy, how to pack and cook suitable food, water safety, selecting campsites, etc.

Stu's tried to do this sort of thing before I think. Not sure on the uptake but I got the impression it was patchy.

I'm not trying to shoot down everything you've said (honest ) but I truly believe there's way too much focus on having to get all the gear before getting out. There's no need. Sure, basic stuff will hit its limits quickly but when you start go local, go small. Learn via experience and as soon as you've read half a dozen articles or asked a few forum questions you'll have 75% of the answers.

Anyhow, YMMV and HYOH