King Alfreds Way.

[jameso]

or are new routes being fuelled by an increase in riders who are ultimately being fuelled by the industry continuing to push 'adventure'?

As CM said of Trail Centres coming out at a particular time, could it be that new long distance routes are simply following suit and are just a reflection of the cycling times?

I think there's something in that reflection of the times point and the LD, easier-terrain bikepacking thing has been building for a number of years now. The industry mostly pushes what's being pulled through already by the time it's started pushing. If that makes sense The majority of industry / marketeers don't try to push water uphill.

There's also a lot of riders myself included who just weren't interested in travelling abroad to ride this year so UK 'known routes' will be seeing more traffic. The point about how few riders create their own routes has been covered here before.

[Mike]

cracking route this is!!

[labrat]

So many good points above...

CM makes the very relevant point about commuters, head down etc. - to me thats one of the problems with national cycle network, its neither man nor beast - both leisure routes and commuting/utility. I feel like there often needs to be a much clearer demarkation between the two. I think that the widespread adoption of canal routes (with their generally narrow towpaths) into the transport cycling network has been a real mistake - compounded by the 'cycle routes need to be well surfaced' approach which means an increase in median speed. The increase in conflict should be entirely foreseeable.

Trail centres opened up MTB to a huge variety of new people, this an only be seen as a good thing - the problem, IMO, is that as a community we haven't looked at 'what next'. I've found it frustrating that many of the early trail centres, which were actually really broad based and XC/trail orientated started going increasingly down the niche 'gravity orientated' line. What we needed throw the sport were more green and blue routes, not more black routes. We also need more stuff on the urban fringe and AONB's, not miles from anywhere that can only be accessed by car.

Regards trail centres on PROW - I think its a shame its never really taken off. Recent things like Wetherby red-kite trails show the opportunity for this in urban fringe areas... but this project seems to have largely reigned back in into solitary focus on a pump track. Recent developments with Covid-19 have really highlighted the issues with poor accessibility on urban fringe, Glover review of National Landscapes was broadly positive about extending access - and we expect there to be announcements about the government formal response to the Glover review in coming weeks

Trains - yes, the problem there is that the pipeline for train infrastructure is so long - stuff happening now is the result of arcane and complex contract specifications written some years ago, when nobody was listening to discussions/lobbying about bikes, and thus the rolling stock coming in now will likely be with us for decades. There are no easy fixes, and lobbying won't change the contracts that the TOC's and operators have already signed.

regards routes.

I think that the big lesson for all of us is that the internet has generated routes like 'monkeys with typewriters' - there are just so many potential routes out there, with no form of proper quality control. what we need to get tourism flowing, and more people riding, is fewer, but better, promoted routes, with a clear marque of accreditation. Jacks books have proven how important this is - I think he's also proven that people want more than just a 'route' they need some local history and culture as well. None of this is surprising, those of us who grew up on Wainwright's books, or who cut our teeth on Derek Purdy's guidebooks in the North East will understand it.

In 1947 the Hobhouse Committee, reporting on the proposals for National Parks, stated that:

“...We also attach importance to the provision of long distance paths and bridleways in and between National Parks and Conservation Areas. There should be continuous routes which will enable walkers and riders to travel the length and breadth of the Parks, moving as little as possible on the motor roads.”

This was subsequently followed up in the 1949 National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act (as amended by the Countryside Act 1968), which empowered the Countryside Commission (a power subsequently transferred to Natural England) to prepare reports to the Minister setting out plans for long-distance routes and associated facilities, where it believed that:

“...the public should be enabled to make extensive journeys on foot or on horseback or on a bicycle along a particular route, being a route for which the whole or the greater part of its length does not pass along roads mainly used by vehicles...”

however, only two of our fifteen national trails are fully open for bikes

Cycling UK’s off-road survey data shows that England’s National Trails are disproportionately important for off-road cyclists and mountain bikers. In the 2015 ‘Rides of Way’ survey of over ten thousand riders found that nearly 20% of all respondents had ridden on the South Downs Way, and 14% percent had ridden on the Ridgeway (i.e. on the half of the trail that is currently open to cyclists). Given that Natural England’s own MENE data suggests that less than 2% of all countryside visits involve off-road cycling or mountain biking - so national trails really are pretty remarkable.

we know that on the two trails that are open for bikes, and stretches of the others that are partially open for bikes, about 25-30 of all use is bike

The data also tells us, however, that the majority use of National Trails is for day rides rather than multi-day use, so we really need to look at how we can develop more (circular) day rides on and around long distance trails - and thats going to be one of the things I try and do with Great North and King Alfred's Way - hoping to do something for next season.

Finally - I think theres huge potential for a central web repertoire of really good, well communicated routes - allied with other stuff like good accommodation, location of local bike shops etc.... behind the scenes there is a plan working towards that, but funding to develop something that really has breadth and quality, and can be kept updated, is an issue (type of thing you need proper tourism funding for)

God, we're covering a lot of ground here - and thats really good, as its important that people see a bit of what's going on behind the scenes, as its you that we're fighting for as much as ourselves.

[jameso]

Really interesting input Labrat, thanks.

.. 'cycle routes need to be well surfaced' approach which means an increase in median speed. The increase in conflict should be entirely foreseeable.

Seems more of a UK problem though, unless my view of French and German cycle paths is skewed? They always seem to be better-behaved (or better-habited) on both sides, from what I've seen. Less pressure on space in the areas I've ridden them though. Anyway.. digressing, sorry. We have what we have as far as national attitudes in general go and the interest is in making better bike routes for all.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Trail centres opened up MTB to a huge variety of new people, this an only be seen as a good thing - the problem, IMO, is that as a community we haven't looked at 'what next'. I've found it frustrating that many of the early trail centres, which were actually really broad based and XC/trail orientated started going increasingly down the niche 'gravity orientated' line. What we needed throw the sport were more green and blue routes, not more black routes.

Many years ago I was asked by the chap who managed CyB if I'd go and have a look and try and figure out why they had a few accident 'black spots' on some of the trails ... while discussing things later, he said exactly the same thing ... the easier trails were quicker and cheaper to build, easier to maintain and held a much broarder appeal. The sticking point was that those who shout the loudest usually get what they want. I forget exactly but I'm sure he said the black trails swallow somehing like 60% of the budget but are only ridden by 10% of the visitors.

In a similar vain - how many bikepackers actually 'race'. I'd estimate the number is quite limited, yet the amount of coverage given to it would perhaps have you believe otherwise. I do appreciate that 'racing is sexy and can be packaged in a way that 'Mike and Norm's wet ride' can't

[labrat]

In a similar vain - how many bikepackers actually 'race'. I'd estimate the number is quite limited, yet the amount of coverage given to it would perhaps have you believe otherwise. I do appreciate that 'racing is sexy and can be packaged in a way that 'Mike and Norm's wet ride' can't

Oh my word, don’t get me on to the damage that marketing does to the image of MTB, and how the image of the sport this creates holds back access improvements.

This **** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M80Sc3jJDDM

Versus this utter genius https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ-sbWSYhdo&t=4s

[Mike]

both those vids are ace

[In Reverse]

Both of those vids are cliched cringey nonsense tbf , they're just coming at their "thing" from different angles.

A mate's just bought one of those new Trek Slashes and on first impressions it's a fantasic bike, lively and well balanced. Wish I had one. Does anyone use XT Di2?

Intending to ride KAW this weekend, work allowing. Will test James's statement that it's a comfortable 2 day ride.

[Dyffers]

Does anyone use XT Di2?

An XT Di2 rear mech (with Ultegra shifters) on a road bike on which I wanted a wider range cassette. I'll be damned if I'm submerging it in water and smashing it of rocks on a MTB!

[HUX]

Intending to ride KAW this weekend, work allowing. Will test James's statement that it's a comfortable 2 day ride.

This is a cracking route. If you keep moving 2days should be achievable. Starting off route at Calne we did 250miles 28hrs moving. Loads of bivi spots. Definitely a 29er route over a gravel bike. Dont expect all the pubs on the route to be open or to still be a pub! Check in advance. There is a better looking cafe and an M&S food just after the Devil's Punchbowl cafe.
Enjoy

[ssnowman]

What is the logic for doing it clockwise?

Having ridden the Ridgeway & SDW elements both ways, these are sections that to me are much better in an anti-clockwise direction.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Does anyone know if the guidebook is only available to members? On the shop it says out of stock but if you select 'member discount' then you can buy one?

[Chew]

I do appreciate that 'racing is sexy and can be packaged in a way that 'Mike and Norm's wet ride' can't

I dunno, you seem to be doing your best...


From experience the "roadpacking"tm is basically just touring repackaged and its easy to get people to give it a go.

From the road club its easy to persuade a handful of people to pack a few things into a seatpack and go away for a ride somewhere 50/60miles away for a night in a B&B and then ride back the next day.
Trying to convince people from the mtb club to ride any more than 20 miles and do something similar is fairly much impossible

[labrat]

Does anyone know if the guidebook is only available to members? On the shop it says out of stock but if you select 'member discount' then you can buy one?

Victim of our own success.

I think we’ve literally sold through two full batches, waiting for third.

[Cheeky Monkey]

Does anyone know if the guidebook is only available to members? On the shop it says out of stock but if you select 'member discount' then you can buy one?

Victim of our own success.

I think we’ve literally sold through two full batches, waiting for third.

Sounds like a good result

[labrat]

Sounds like a good result

I *told* them to do a Book and new membership package...

[Cheeky Monkey]

I finally joined just recently

You know where I am if you need me

[psling]

Interesting reading. Much has been covered but I'm going to make a few observations!

One thing that always amuses me (maybe the wrong word but meant in a good way) is that people always come to the subject from their own particular interest group. Having said that, there are posters on here taking a broader perpective

Bikepackers want off-road, unsurfaced, long distance routes with bivvy spots. Tourers want quiet rideable surfaced, long distance routes with accommodation. MTBers want more and more extreme adreneline-rush trail centres. Family leisure riders want safe, easier riding in a controlled environment. And so on...

Trails like the new King Alfred's Way and the recent Great North Trail are a series of existing Rights of Way stitched together with maybe a few bits of Permissive Path added. A lot of work will go into their planning but not necessarily into their building. They are unlikely to be maintained beyond paths already maintained by Local Authorities and there will be sections overgrown, narrow, and muddy along with the better surfaced parts. There may be some waymarking of the trail but in these days of GPX that would be minimal.

An ITT is similar but promoted in a different way (although some will probably ITT the likes of KAW & GNT anyway - see previous posts, time is of the essence for some ) and can be ridden as a multi-day tour at the riders' own leisurely pace.

A Sustrans route or National Cycle Route will create new rights of way and paths and will take a lot more time and energy, raising finance and much greater use of statistics to sell to money-providers (the same statistics often successfully used against the creation of a trail by NIMBYs )

Other types of routes I would describe as leisure or urban routes that a lot of local tourist boards and Local Authorities put out there.

Who uses all these routes? Sometimes I get the feeling there is very little cross-over between user groups; sometimes the only time this happens is when a 'serious cyclist' goes out with 'non-serious cyclist family members'. Which brings me neatly back to my first point, that people often look at things only from their own interest point of view.

Bringing the different interest groups to a common outcome would be like herding cats! From memory I have seen Open Spaces Society, Byways & Bridleways Trust, Land Access and Recreation Association, Country Landowners Association, International Mountain Bike Association (Trans Cambrian anyone?), CTC (Cycling UK), and many more pursuit-specific groups along with ROW Forums, Local Authorities, National Bodies. I say well done and thank you to anyone with the commitment and time to get properly involved

Just rambling, throwing thoughts out there

[labrat]

I think one the the things there Psling is that actually much of this comes back to the access debate (and how the public image of off-road cycling affect that too)

There are a lot of routes that are physically suitable for all the users you identify above... but they don't have the legal status, under current rules, to promote them for this users.

Personally I find it more than infuriating that local authorities inevitably run a mile from using their statutory powers to proactively change that status. (a couple of issues here, one being the cost and resources involved in an opposed upgrade that goes to public inquiry, the other being the possibility of having to pay (an unknown and unlimited amount of) compensation) See examples like www.adamsmile.co.uk

Most rights of way improvement plans are a joke, and theres a complete lack of aspiration to develop functioning rights of way networks.

Whats also frustrating is that there are a lot of potential routes - eg. disused railway lines - out there that are physically suitable and crying out for creation/upgrading of access, but rather than secure the *right* of access (leading us with, essentially, an unsurfaced bridleway or RB that mountain bikes and horse riders could use now) the councils leave it on the shelf waiting for capital funding to develop it as a cycle track (high grade surfacing suitable for utility cycling). My attitude is very much I'd rather have a substandard, bridleway type route now, that I can use, than wait for ten or more years for capital funding to surface it.

Now - the same old day of 'scottish access' comes out, but its a bit more complex than that - and why we need to accept that not all routes are suitable for shared use. there are legacy issues in E&W that means we have a lot of recorded footpaths in areas that were countryside and are now urban/suburban (Scotland didn't have this mess to sort out). What happens in coming months in Wales, with the draft recommendations of the ARAG groups, will undoubtedly shape the debate in England (next round of the starts again this month after delays caused by Covid).


Back to who/how are these routes used - interesting stuff there, I've got a lot of data on National Trails and (unsurprising) most National Trail use is day trips rather than long distance linear use - so one of the plans for King Alfred's Way, GNT and the National Trails is to publish some fairly wide user base circular day routes - from ten miles upwards - based around National Trails, particularly linking National Trails to urban areas so people can ride from their door (and you'll notice that connecting to urban areas was part of what we did with KAW ). I/we will no doubt be looking for help with this in coming months.

[UnderTheRadars]

Hi Labrat, as you're popping in on this thread could you comment about this:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=18089&p=231734#p231734

Feel free to PM if can't publicly go in to much detail

I did catch that comment about the 'unrideable' bit and Guy's reply on the YouTube vid

[Rob Colliver]

I did my version of the route before lockdown in an anti-clockwise direction as I didn't fancy riding Butser at the start and some bits of the route I just guessed at so my route through Frensham was different and the line from Liss to the QECP varied for example.
Having whizzed round it this week (the weather was nice and the trails are dry so it was too good a chance to miss rather than do a few weeks bonus to get fit again) I agree its better to ride it clockwise for lots of reasons, especially the descent from the Ridgeway towards Reading, and that I get to ride through Reading in the dead of night as the route goes past the cinema, restaurants and shops on the canal-path in the city centre.
The Garage south or Reading was open and supplied water and Rennies, and the BP garage near Hindhead also agreed to supply me at 0400 with water even though they were officially closed.
My other resupply stops were water at Kings Somborne and Amesbury and by going clockwise, these were open so it suited perfectly.
As a bonus, I managed to not fall off this time in the ruts on the Ridgeway (last time I damaged the rear hanger and sent the chain into the spokes), so overall, I loved doing it and its a fun change from another lap of the SDW.
Ridden on an old Tallboy with food onboard for the entire journey with Vittoria Mezcal tyres as it was what I like and had no issues at all with comfort or mechanicals.

[labrat]

Hi Labrat, as you're popping in on this thread could you comment about this:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=18089&p=231734#p231734

Feel free to PM if can't publicly go in to much detail

I did catch that comment about the 'unrideable' bit and Guy's reply on the YouTube vid

It’s very early days - and I think it will probably need rights of way change to deliver properly .... but a couple of options there. Conceptually think: Knighton (or thereabouts) stiperstones, long mynd, Jack Mytton Way, ironbridge, stoke(ish), Mow Cop, the Cloud and then over the cheshire plain (canals?) to pennine Bridleway, possibly joining in somewhere around Macclesfield

[UnderTheRadars]

Hi Labrat, as you're popping in on this thread could you comment about this:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=18089&p=231734#p231734

Feel free to PM if can't publicly go in to much detail

I did catch that comment about the 'unrideable' bit and Guy's reply on the YouTube vid

It’s very early days - and I think it will probably need rights of way change to deliver properly .... but a couple of options there. Conceptually think: Knighton (or thereabouts) stiperstones, long mynd, Jack Mytton Way, ironbridge, stoke(ish), Mow Cop, the Cloud and then over the cheshire plain (canals?) to pennine Bridleway, possibly joining in somewhere around Macclesfield

Thanks for the reply. The Jack Mytton is a good link from the Mynd Eastwards. Also have the Mercian way and (parts of) the Monarchs way that could be utilised

[jameso]

My other resupply stops were water at Kings Somborne and Amesbury and by going clockwise, these were open so it suited perfectly.

I found a couple of outdoor taps, will see if I can locate them on the GPS trace. One was a pub with a tap on the wall, another was at a village hall. The usual 'water rule' of checking churches, village halls and allotments. Churchyards on this route were no-gos.

[HUX]

There is a tap at the rear of the church in Thursley, go round the left side. I was on empty so was a good find.
There is another 1 round the back of The Bustard Inn on Salisbury Plain which hasnt been a pub for 12years. Its now a church and charity. Tap is by the back door and they didnt mind