King Alfreds Way.

[jameso]

It helps that the weather's good? I assume it's as sunny there as it was here.

Yes - was thinking I could be a bit exposed and messy if the weather was bad, similar to the Ridgeway but close to the sea and worse weather?

All in all I really enjoyed this route. 100% (imho) a 29er type of route, there was enough flowy XC to keep me happy I was on the Jones. I had 2.4 Rangers on which were a bit OTT but they're good XC tyres, fairly quick. I'm looking for something less buzzy on tarmac though, I'll either find them or wear the centres off these in time..

General waffle / for ref, if anyone's planning the ride -
I started in Goring which worked out really well - you get the least interesting section done at the start. TBH I thought the section between Reading and the M3 area wasn't great on the whole but I wasn't expecting much based on the guide that the more built up an area is the less I'll enjoy being there. To be fair the route does find it's way through it well with only a busy riverside path in Reading and some byways running next to noisy fast roads being a slight downer and don't get me wrong, there's some nice stuff in there.
As you get into Surrey the trails get good, often feels like you're riding along the garden fences of some millionaire stockbrokers but there's some great riding on sandy trails and loads of nice bivi spot options. Then the Surrey NDW trails change to the Chalk of the SDW and you're moving away from London (always A Good Thing). This is why for me the Goring start worked well, just as I was beginning to wonder if it was a route I'd enjoy it opens out and it's continually good riding. I was looking for the big open country of the western half and got plenty of that.
Really enjoyed the SDW-Salisbury plain-Ridgeway western 1/3 section and although I know the western half of the Ridgeway by heart it felt different ending along there, it was in context with the rest of the riding but 2 days of riding high added something to it. I rode home from Goring on tarmac as it was getting a bit late and my lights weren't up to off-road in the dark. I'd stopped near the end of the Salisbury plain section to meet a friend I'd not seen since he came back from living in BC, Canada (I wanted to know why on earth he came back ) and that turned into a 3 1/2 hour brunch, so was running a bit late to get home for dinner.

Riding time was a bit over 19hrs. Full route in 2 days without any riding in the dark, setting up a bivi at 7.30 both nights. To save a bit of time I skipped the Liddington castle section of the Ridgeway as there's a good straight line lower track/road to Fox Hill and the castle was crawling with Sunday aft visitors. That saves me about 30 mins based on past rides. I'd also gone off route poking about some singletracks I'd seen along the way and an added 10km or so to meet up for brunch so it probably balances out, ~20hrs for the loop. I say that as a guide not a marker time - that was my moving time and I spent plenty of time stopped eg Winchester was a good late lunch / early dinner spot but I missed the cathedral closing time by 10 mins, ah well.
I got a higher climbing total on the GPS than I did on the RWGPS file - 4500M+ vs 3500m. Still, not really a hilly route overall, 'rolling' in general and flat in places.
I reckon an early start Sat and Sun will get the route done in a weekend for those wanting a brisk but not too time-crunched ride assuming you're not on anything with skinny tyres, and 3-4 days makes it a nice trip. I'd really question the Cycling UK mention of a 'gravel route' and 35mm tyres and upwards, it's just XC. I'd have been beat to near-submission on my 650B gravel bike if it was loaded up vs having a great time on the 29er in comfort, but plenty of harder rides have been done on 35mm touring bikes.

[labrat]

Thanks for the feedback James

I think that section is very different if you start in Winchester, as then it becomes The middle section, and a good chance to rest and recover after the Ridgeway before The trail starts ramping back up again

Be interesting to know if you had followed just the GPX or included the ‘options’ eg. along basingstoke canal Which in my opinion transforms the middle section - but politics over the status of the route there, Being a permissive route under management of Basingstoke Canal Trust, and the desire to control messaging and avoid those riders who were ITT’ing or going fast from caning it along the narrow towpath, particularly at weekends when it can be busy led to it being optional rather than core route. (So, the advice there is, if you are travelling chilled out then the canal option gives the best overall experience, but if you are going fast, follow the core route)

As for gravel or MTB - it’s one of those ‘piece of string’ arguments.... I’ve already had people who insist they want to do it on tourers, people asking if they can do it on recumbent trikes and people complaining it’s not suitable for adapted bikes (ie. wheelchair users), and that we should only be working on routes that are tarmac surfaced and suitable for all types of bicycles all year, someone else complaining about the sandy bits. We had a video chat thing the other night with someone complaining that the steep bit with the steps was completely unsuitable for bikes of any sort... I really appreciated Guy’s response of ‘well, I rode up it’.

I agree with your point that someone trying to do this on a fully laden gravel bike with bikepacking kit might well struggle in places, but the takeaway lesson for that might be to travel fast and light by credit card touring.

My opinion is that there has to be a broad church within cycling, and this route is, hopefully, unashamedly challenging without at any point being impossible for a reasonably fit rider with average off-road skills.There are bits where it’s probably at the ‘top end’ of gravel, And the ‘bottom end’ of MTB - But then isn’t that pretty much what old fashioned XC riding was before all the marketing bollox crept in?... (I still think that the French were spot on with the concept of VTT rather than ‘mountain biking’)

[jameso]

Interesting post, thanks labrat. I took the core route pretty much as it was and will try the Basingstoke canal next time. What you say about it being the middle and a rest makes sense, though I really liked how the rest of the route felt quite continual due to where I started. I can imagine finishing near Reading being a good plan, with all those waterfront bars.

I saw a few social media posts from the, 'old guard'? of the CTC on the route and the comments about suitability. It must be frustrating for CUK. I've been a member for a few years and I'm happy that most of CUK's work supports things I have less need for but they're good things for UK cycling. It's be nice if some others could be more tolerant or appreciative of a wider range of work being done. Enabling adventurous touring for more people (and it will be for many, even if not more than a weekend jolly for some on here) is a great thing.

Gravel or MTB ... every time I think about that topic I think about the pictures I've seen of Ian Hibbell If attitude and bike match, all's good. I do wonder if some new-to-bikepacking riders are being sold up the wrong path by the industry's presentation of gravel bikes for loaded touring/bikepacking and how often 'gravel' gets used for SEO purposes etc where we're really talking about XC but that's a general Q I have in mind these days, could be applied to this route but it's not something I'd mean to direct at CUK in particular.

But then isn’t that pretty much what old fashioned XC riding was before all the marketing bollox crept in?... (I still think that the French were spot on with the concept of VTT rather than ‘mountain biking’)

100% x10 +1

We had a video chat thing the other night with someone complaining that the steep bit with the steps was completely unsuitable for bikes of any sort...

- had they never heard of the RSF?

[labrat]

.
I saw a few social media posts from the, 'old guard'? of the CTC on the route and the comments about suitability. It must be frustrating for CUK. I've been a member for a few years and I'm happy that most of CUK's work supports things I have less need for but they're good things for UK cycling. It's be nice if some others could be more tolerant or appreciative of a wider range of work being done. Enabling adventurous touring for more people (and it will be for many, even if not more than a weekend jolly for some on here) is a great thing.

You could argue that this is somewhat back to the roots - Embracing the idea of people riding in the countryside as a form of escape from the working week and the smoke and grime filled factory towns. I’ll admit to finding many of the ‘vehicular cyclists’ who concentrate so much on cycling as the only acceptable means of transport, and pushing the gold standard of utility cycling... somewhat frustrating (however I guess that’s partly from my background as a countryside lad who’s lived in really rural areas, and partly Because I am able to have the luxury of holding a purely personal opinion as I am not a direct member of staff and therefore not speaking on behalf of)

Ps. The wider politics on things like this are bonkers - waymarking for example, where one county council would have required us to get support from all parish councils along the route, whereas with GPX nobody can hold us to ransom, and we have freedom to reroute it if issues do occur.

[jameso]

You could argue that this is somewhat back to the roots - Embracing the idea of people riding in the countryside as a form of escape from the working week and the smoke and grime filled factory towns.

The golden era of post-war cycle touring. Feels like things are happening that make it revival / rebirth time, a time to appreciate just how good UK riding can be.

I can only begin to imagine all the headaches and politics that go on behind the scenes. It was worth it, I really enjoyed it and will be back to ride the route and variations on it in future. Thanks for all the hard work

[labrat]

The golden era of post-war cycle touring. Feels like things are happening that make it revival / rebirth time, a time to appreciate just how good UK riding can be.

I think that we need to recognise that ‘weekend break’ type cycling staycation is much more popular than old fashioned touring - by that I mean heading away with the car Somewhere for the weekend, with the bikes in the back. One of my particular concerns is that the market for that is currently very much around day rides facilitated by the car, so people might stay overnight in, say, Harrogate or Skipton, and then drive up into the Dales to go for a ride, then head back out to the town to overnight again. That means that the economic benefits for local communities in a National Park might still be quite limited. (I’ve coined the phrase ‘seagulling’ for this - they fly in in the morning, eat some chips, leave sh** everywhere and then fly out again at night)

If we can instead capture those riders within the rural communities overnight, by stopping them getting back into the car, then they will spend more locally. The ideal is probably a small town with four or five good day routes, all starting from the middle or edge of town - so you can book into a local (cycle friendly) B&B, park your car outside and then not have to look at it all weekend till you pack up and go home. Plus of course if you aren’t getting in the car, then you can go for dinner at the Local pub, drink a few pints, have a great, sociable weekend, and properly boost the local economy.

It might not be backpacking, but this type of riding, and credit card touring is really important for rural economies, and that staycation trade is something they are really in need of after Covid. There’s going to be a long hard road out of this.

If we look at how that plays into the bigger picture of off-road cycle access Post-Covid and post-Glover review, particularly as the Welsh access review is still ongoing, thrn it’s potentially a time for us to make real inroads into the public image and acceptability of MTB - not just about drinking red-bull and knocking over little old ladies on footpaths, but about becoming a fully accepted user group who is an important part of the rural landscape and economy. (“its the economy, stupid”). Of course, the wider issues, like reducing car use in National Parks (Glover review) and global carbon emissions (no more cheap flights to the Alps) all play into the picture as well.

[Bearbonesnorm]

If we can instead capture those riders within the rural communities overnight, by stopping them getting back into the car, then they will spend more locally. The ideal is probably a small town with four or five good day routes, all starting from the middle or edge of town - so you can book into a local (cycle friendly) B&B, park your car outside and then not have to look at it all weekend till you pack up and go home. Plus of course if you aren’t getting in the car, then you can go for dinner at the Local pub, drink a few pints, have a great, sociable weekend, and properly boost the local economy.

Machynlleth used to operate with the same kind of thinking, although you see far fewer riders staying in town (or on / near) the waymarked trails these days.

The potentially good news is that I've seen more riders on the local lanes than ever before ... the majority seem to be touring / bikepacking in one form or another. Given their location, I'm assuming that most are riding some variation of N to S or E to W.

[jameso]

^ couldn't agree more with that plan Labrat. I had a conversation along similar lines with the owner of a campsite along the TNR route when asking about volumes of riders. I had a concern about 'outing' the area and increasing bike traffic, they welcome anything that creates a through-flow of riders or hikers who eat + sleep in the area vs day-trip. The impressive appetite of most riders was noted!

[RIP]

Enjoying this discussion. Especially liked your 'seagulling' term, labrat. Sums it up perfectly.

Very important to support the economies one visits, although some on Here have disputed this in the past. But otherwise why would they welcome you? And, more subtly perhaps, if you needed help why would they?

Perhaps people's car boots should be frisked on entry and all supplies confiscated? I've bored before about this but trying to use public transport to get there more or less removes the ability to take supplies.

I'm afraid the image of MTBers driving with flash bikes on racks at breakneck speed to a faraway trail centre for the day, grabbing coffee and a sandwich if you're lucky, then steaming home again without visiting anything else still persists. And we have MTBs too...

[Bearbonesnorm]

Very important to support the economies one visits, although some on Here have disputed this in the past. But otherwise why would they welcome you? And, more subtly perhaps, if you needed help why would they?

Very true Reg. The area round he Towers is renown for motorsport yet the local economy benefits very little - you quote your friend and mine "The spectators arrive in cars and bring everything with them and the locals don't venture out to the shop because of all the traffic, diversions and roadblocks'.

[RIP]

Good point, hadn't thought of that! Never mind the visitors not buying, the locals stop buying too. Double whammy.

At the risk of getting too fluffy and cuddly, also: buying stuff involves interaction and that enhances the visiting experience immeasurably (psychopaths excepted ).

[FLV]

Enjoying this discussion. Especially liked your 'seagulling' term, labrat. Sums it up perfectly.

Also enjoying this discussion. Very interesting for someone outside the cycle industry (apart from being a cyclist) to read.

I haven't ridden the route yet but hope to do so at some point not too far away. Might try it in the winter as its always sunny in the south....

[whitestone]

There were plans a few years ago to create "semi-wild" trail centres. I think the only one that was completed was at Sutton Bank near Thirsk. Basically some trail centre type armoured trails close to the centre's buildings, in Sutton Bank's case these were the National Park information centre buildings, but then follow lightly marked natural trails leading further away.

Closer to labrat's idea but similar to the above is Swaledale. Stu (Price) at the Dales Bike Centre has maps of local loops for sale. He's also a café and accommodation, Cath's stopped there with a group. He was in the process of extending the accommodation until last year's floods and then Covid put things back a bit - talking to him the other week he said that had let them redesign things to cope with social distancing etc. so almost a blessing in disguise. While there's facilities for self-catering most do tend to head into Reeth for a pub meal and a few drinks of a night. I'm sure quite a few B&Bs in that area get mountain bikers staying as a result of Stu's work. If you had never been to Swaledale there's probably three or four days' rides of say four to six hours with very little repeating yourself.

Credit card touring. Did the Western Isles, Skye, Ardnamurchan and Mull like that. The waitress who served us at the pub in Craignure on Mull on our last night was most impressed that I ate up all the fish pie and still had room for sweet Little did she know ... Perhaps the only downside is having to make it to that night's accommodation - limiting your daily mileage does help but there are some big distances between places so sometimes you've the choice between 40 miles and 70 miles.

[Bearbonesnorm]

You're not wrong Dave. Here's the south yesterday ... just off the Rideway.

[JackT]

I think that we need to recognise that ‘weekend break’ type cycling staycation is much more popular than old fashioned touring - by that I mean heading away with the car Somewhere for the weekend, with the bikes in the back.

This has been, in effect, the market for the last 3 of my Lost Lanes books. (The first book was all about hopping on a train from a London mainline station and spending a day/weekend out in the lanes of the home counties.)

I was keen that, as far as possible, the ‘hub’ towns and villages for day rides were accessible by train, rather than requiring a car. Nobody wants more cars on the roads and the stats say that 45% of under 30s don’t own a car, and that this figure is rising. (I didn’t own a car until I was in my 40s). My publisher saw train accessibility as an important selling point.

Two of the good things about King Alfred’s Way is that it is very well served by train stations, and it’s a circular route. This is a downside of the coast-to-coast routes, though I suppose it has spawned a small cottage industry of minibus owners who will drive you back.

Sadly the railway doesn’t go everywhere, and this emphasises the need to improve train-cycle links into National Parks and AONBs. And even consider raising revenue by taxing car visitors to honeypot areas (if London has a congestion charge, why not the Lake District in July and August? )

For a hub town or village, people need a good base with a choice of accommodation (from campsite to bunkhouse to pub rooms to boutique B&Bs) and would have enough to keep visitors entertained on and off the bike - not everyone wants to go out riding every day of a holiday.

None of this is new - there are route guides (by CTC and others) going back to the 1890s and I was a big consumer of Nick Cotton’s guides in the 1990s. Some local authorities have done a great job in providing route guides for their patch. But it’s the kind of thing that don’t survive austerity. Fortunately, with the web and GPS navigation, it’s much easier to share routes online. My local cycle group in Abergavenny is producing a guide to cycling in the area comprising quiet lane and MTB routes - and other local groups and clubs have produced some great route resources.

[jameso]

^ can't agree more with the point about train access here. Trains with bikes may not always be a great experience but neither is driving on the M1 etc. I don't own a car and because of that I very rarely go to trail centres, they seem to be the opposite of what Jack's encouraging, made for quick-fix experience and car or van travel lifestyle where the main businesses to benefit are the trail centre cafe and the motorway services. I get that the trail centre cafes are valued locally but I think it's a shame to see so many local pubs and shops closing in recent years - car travel rightfully should bypass small villages but how to replace passing trade now? Weekend bike travel is a perfect answer.

RWGPS, Strava etc are all good stores of route info but if I was to look for routes that are created in the KAW or Lost Lanes spirit, highlighting local interest and businesses, where would I go? They're out there but scattered. Perhaps there's an opportunity to centralise the routes and market/present in the right way? RWGPS simply shows the route whereas Lost Lanes and Pannier's feature on KAW presents the reasons why and the experience. It's the kind of project that would be a labour of love rather than a commercial thing but I'm sure it could be crowd-resourced by the experience on here, just as an example. Perhaps that's CyclingUK's aim?

[Cheeky Monkey]

I'm not going to try and teach Labrat anything about trail centres but they came out of a particular time, funding opportunity, perceived need etc. I doubt people really understood how they would be used whilst most were planned and developed. The existing crop have been criticised by some as being inaccessible to many due to their locations and lack of transport links. I'm not against them at all (I've been involved in the planning and building of several) but as a component to making biking more of an everyday thing in the UK I think they are of quite little use / value. The (crass) comparisons to being the modern exec's golf and the fast-food equivalent of riding do hold some truth, IMO.

To my mind I think the sort of schemes being discussed here tie in much better with the need to develop better cycle infrastructure for use more often and by a greater proportion of the population on the route to improving environmental (and as Kie mentioned, economic / social) sustainability. Feels like a massive task when you can't move around with a bike on the transport network (i.e. trains) without what seems to be a right palaver. But, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Maybe we need a Boris "moonshot" though, TBH, the only one I really want is one that catapults him and his mates into a lunar environment, with or without spacesuits

[RIP]

My publisher saw train accessibility as an important selling point.

Presumably no problem continuing to base routes round stations, since cars will be able to reach those places as well anyway .

a small cottage industry of minibus owners who will drive you back.

Reckon this is a major part of Mach's economy .

Sadly the railway doesn’t go everywhere, and this emphasises the need to improve train-cycle links into National Parks and AONBs. And even consider raising revenue by taxing car visitors to honeypot areas (if London has a congestion charge, why not the Lake District in July and August? )

Ooer, that's lit the blue touch paper . Agree entirely but I can imagine many that don't. They could refurbish and reinstate the old Severn Bridge barriers onto the A66 at Penrith and the A590 at Oxenholme!

I'm not going to try and teach Labrat anything about trail centres but they came out of a particular time

Fair point.

[JackT]

RWGPS, Strava etc are all good stores of route info but if I was to look for routes that are created in the KAW or Lost Lanes spirit, highlighting local interest and businesses, where would I go? They're out there but scattered.

You’re right James. A central repository would be great, however it would run into all the usual issues of quality control and stuff getting out of date. I recall at one point finding a web page with links to all the official local authority leisure route guides available online. I can’t remember the URL.

Richard Fairhurst at cycle.travel has some good, well researched and free route guides for multi day journeys: https://cycle.travel/routes

Komoot is also trying to do this but I have found the quality control lacking. Some of the official Komoot guides are desk jobs, written by people who’ve never ridden the route and others where there are some very, shall we say, interesting route choices. (E.g. a Black Mountains bikepacking route that includes the footpath that goes right over the summit of the Sugarloaf)

Sustrans sell their own route guides, which usually come with a map. The Ciccerone cycling guide books are solid.

I suppose I could have a page on the Lost Lanes website with useful links to other route guides that I am confident meet my quality standards. I’ll add to the to-do list.

[Cheeky Monkey]

RIP - I could probably teach him how to stone pitch a trail. I like to think I'm quite good at that

[RIP]

. Actually it was the "came out of a particular time" point that nudged me. Always interesting to see how we might have done things differently, in retrospect.

[Cheeky Monkey]

They have their place.

I like Sutton Bank and think what they've done there is great but doing things with local authorities is usually hard work. We worked with the volunteers at Wetherby Bike Trails who did several great community based things in that area including a succession of gradually more challenging loops on existing RoW with a light-touch waymarking and the construction of a community skills spot (Devil's Toenail). What they've achieved is amazing but it's down to some pretty uniquely dedicated and motivated individuals who seem to have had to fight through great swathes of the system (plus the nay-sayers and NIMBYs) to get there. Not for the faint-hearted or casual

[jameso]

I'm not going to try and teach Labrat anything about trail centres but they came out of a particular time, funding opportunity, perceived need etc. I doubt people really understood how they would be used whilst most were planned and developed.

Valid point, and I enjoyed/used them a lot a while back. You can't blame their development for the growth in 'snowboard attitude' MTBing either, I think that's come from the bike development and the need for trails to match the bikes that are marketed, rather than V-V and matching a bike to the trails available w/o a longer journey. Neither's better and the thrills-location side of MTB is something do I enjoy, it's just how MTB developed.

The existing crop have been criticised by some as being inaccessible to many due to their locations and lack of transport links.

To be expected and forgiven when the best riding options in FC areas, plus space needs, are what influenced it most?

[Cheeky Monkey]

To an extent it's a good job TCs are in FC land as one (of the main?) types of riding they cater for / encourage / takes place is more "brakes-off", speed and thrills. Being located in a relatively unattractive mono culture of trees where there's little to draw a lot of Joe Public is probably a good thing to avoid and reduce user conflict.

There'll be a huge dose of compromise necessary to achieve anything and it's so hard to communicate that and get people to buy in which is one, of loads, of the challenges to wider trail (not necessarily TC-style) development. Labrat mentions it re: the canal option on the King Alfred Trail. You see it on the Solar Way outside York where head-down commuters mix with little kids weaving around on a family pootle and I imagine it's replicated all over.

Tricky stuff

[Bearbonesnorm]

Now (here he goes), I've just returned from the post office in Llanidloes and have seen more loaded bikes than I've ever seen locally outside of an event - around 12 and most of those were what I'd perhaps describe as 'roadpackers'. That got me thinking ... from what I can see, there's obviously an increase in interest out there but what's fuelling what? Is the interest being fuelled by new routes or are new routes being fuelled by an increase in riders who are ultimately being fuelled by the industry continuing to push 'adventure'?

As CM said of Trail Centres coming out at a particular time, could it be that new long distance routes are simply following suit and are just a reflection of the cycling times?

PS. Good luck to the lad wearing the Hunt jersey in the Spar. That limp you were sporting indicates to me that you're in for a long day.