I'll leave this here for Stu.

[Taylor]

https://katherinebikes.com/school-night-bivvi-club/

[Bearbonesnorm]

Don't you worry fella, I've already seen it and have opened a dialogue on FB.

I'm really struggling with the concept of her mentioning LNT then featuring a campfire on every other shot. As usual, I pointed out that regardless of her groups personal actions, she has set herself up as a 'role model' and so should lead by example ... if not, she just looks like a bandwagon jumper who will do anything for likes, shares and popular opinion ... I await a response.

Anyone else, feel free to join in. It might make me look a little less like the resident grumpy b'stard.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1666986 ... ent_follow

[cyclingtiger]

I looked at the first picture on that page and thought OK, its disposable barbeques in an established fire pit/activity area. Earth already scoured, no real issue.

Not strictly my cup of tea but on the bold presumption they're going to carry out, I can't take issue.

Then I read the rest of the page. Clearly a right bunch of boiled spuds. Will join the good fight with you.

[lune ranger]

Maybe they could rub their two brain cells together to start the bloody fire...

[jameso]

Photographer is on here sometimes - may be able to clarify if it's on private land?

[lune ranger]

Photographer is on here sometimes - may be able to clarify if it's on private land?

Fair point but they are portraying an image and most other folk will not have landowner permission

[Lazarus]

I dont really understand why you all get so het up about fires, though i never personally bother[takes too much time and i should be riding or sleeping] i dont have a hard and fixed rule on them - just like footpath riding.I might if i thought i could do it "responsibly"/needed to but tend to not do it.It was poor of them to describe how to make a fire and nothing on what to do with it afterwards
That said if local is it really that bad if one small spot has one fire pit in one area?

Locally to me there are at least 10 spots i can think of where kids and drunks "camp" *where there are fire pits so if i wanted to camp with fire i would pick there.

* get wasted in the countryside where countryside is a place less than 600 metres from a car parking spot.

[jameso]

Photographer is on here sometimes - may be able to clarify if it's on private land?

Fair point but they are portraying an image and most other folk will not have landowner permission

I'm with you there, portraying an image / publicising it being the problem.

Edit to add, as publicising isn't the problem as such, it's what's omitted with the promotion of it
eg

i dont have a hard and fixed rule on them

..as you say the fire itself isn't always the issue, it's how it's done, where, etc. If you going to promote an activity that has potential risks or negatives, promoting how to do it well is worth the time - arguably not promoting that side of it is irresponsible, or at least a mistake. Not everyone picks a spot that's already had the damage done or where it's accepted. Fire spots can tend to become litter spots, etc.
I was a bit of a firebug as a kid, like a campfire and have learned what not to do in more recent / bike tripping years - generally not bother, or do the right thing in the right place (they're rare ime) if that's a planned part of a trip.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I'm with you there, portraying an image / publicising it being the problem.

And that's kind of my point - it is possible to have a fire and genuinelly leave no trace (and I mean no trace, not just nothing to see) but most people don't know how and those that do usually don't bother with a fire because they know how much work it is. Trouble is, publishing pictures portraying a romantic image of a campfire encourages others to follow suit, some of whom will have no idea about LNT or may simply not care. If you write something with an air of authority, then you really do have a duty to outline best practice and lead by example - simply saying here's a link to a LNT website while ignoring the principles yourself really isn't good enough.

Locally to me there are at least 10 spots i can think of where kids and drunks "camp" *where there are fire pits so if i wanted to camp with fire i would pick there.

There are still areas of the countryside that aren't shitholes, it'd be nice to keep them that way.

[faustus]

It does seem to be at odds with the LNT principles it claims to support, and there's every reason to be a grumpy bustard about it. The how to camp bit was quite, er, intriguing; like carrying all that uncooked meat, a £3 morrisons grill (where on the bike does it go!?), and some charcoal/firelogs/lighter gel.

i'm not a fan of fires so much either, and romantic images of campfires and bikepacking do get misused on social media for the sake of promotion. My personal issue with fires when wildcamping, is that it seems like a bit of a piss-take to sleep somewhere without permission and make a fire as well. That's alongside LNT concerns and the practicalities involved, of course. Also, I agree that just because some fire pits already exist in random places, doesn't imply it is permitted or appropriate.

Being grumpy and social-phobic, I found the 'share the stoke' phrase pretty nauseating, but that's neither here nor there!

[RIP]

Since this has been designated a grumpy thread I'll add that 'disposable' barbecues may well be LNT at point of use but I'll bet 98% get simply chucked in the bin back at home.

The fires on that website were much larger than necessary for cooking so she's not even sticking to that self-proclaimed rule - the best I've managed is a honeystove perched on some old foil. Cart the remains out in a paper bag and re-use the foil many times.

If people are going to attempt LNT when out for a bivi they should at least try treading lightly at other times. Goodness knows I'm far from perfect with the don't use / re-use / recycle concept but there's some obvious things. Also, I don't think we should treat the 'countryside' or 'wild places' as somehow more worthy of LNT than anywhere else.

[jameso]

If people are going to attempt LNT when out for a bivi they should at least try treading lightly at other times.

as I've found, understanding a bit more about what does leave traces has had an impact on life when I'm not in the woods. Taking outdoors attitudes home is so much better than taking indoor attitudes outside?

fwiw I posted in the FB group, I know I'm not saying anything different to your comments Stu but I've learned a bit about what people read / ignore in recent years as well as what comes with promoting an activity in an area .. as you already know from a few conversations. I'm sure this is similar, all good intentions and the implications of wider promotion aren't always that obvious.

[redefined_cycles]

Might be an idea (and possibly influence/inspire/make people understand the potential consequences with a real world exampel!) to add this viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14794 onto the facebook page (not the thrwad* but that first report that made the basis for that thread above...

*only reason I said 'not the thread' but just the article is cos it hopefully ensures this place (BB central) doesnt become a SingleTrack forum type of thing (and I'm sure it could attract lots of trolls!)... just saying

[fatbikephil]

I've posted a comment as I'm getting fed up of seeing this and fed up of seeing fire sites proliferating in all the nice bivvy spots I come across. Its not grumpy its being right!

[jameso]

I think we should be careful that LNT guidelines and actually leaving no trace or damage isn't seemingly replaced by 'no fires'.*

I may be wrong .. but here's my reasoning. If you just say no fires it's easy for some to write you off. LNT doesn't say no fires*, it says don't cause harm. If we were accepting that fires in the outdoors are a very natural thing for humans and that there is a way to do it that doesn't do harm (I know, some will fk it up .. but if that was the reason to bar something there wouldn't be cars or businesses, etc) then promoting how to do it would be a positive, a skill learned, rather than being fixed-anti which may be polarising and ignored?

*There are places where fires are stupid, of course.. all this meant with the place and other things being OK.

[redefined_cycles]

I think we should be careful that LNT guidelines and actually leaving no trace or damage isn't seemingly replaced by 'no fires'.*

I may be wrong .. but here's my reasoning. If you just say no fires it's easy for some to write you off. LNT doesn't say no fires*, it says don't cause harm. If we were accepting that fires in the outdoors are a very natural thing for humans and that there is a way to do it that doesn't do harm (I know, some will fk it up .. but if that was the reason to bar something there wouldn't be cars or businesses, etc) then promoting how to do it would be a positive, a skill learned, rather than being fixed-anti which may be polarising and ignored?

*There are places where fires are stupid, of course.. all this meant with the place and other things being OK.

+1

[Bearbonesnorm]

I think we should be careful that LNT guidelines and actually leaving no trace or damage isn't seemingly replaced by 'no fires'.*

I may be wrong .. but here's my reasoning. If you just say no fires it's easy for some to write you off. LNT doesn't say no fires*, it says don't cause harm. If we were accepting that fires in the outdoors are a very natural thing for humans and that there is a way to do it that doesn't do harm (I know, some will fk it up .. but if that was the reason to bar something there wouldn't be cars or businesses, etc) then promoting how to do it would be a positive, a skill learned, rather than being fixed-anti which may be polarising and ignored?

I do agree ^ but it's a difficult thing to pull off - doesn't mean that we shouldn't try though.

If we were accepting that fires in the outdoors are a very natural thing for humans

If you were sat behind your computer 1000 years ago and wrote that, then I'd agree. Many people have lost all and any natural connection with the outdoors and feel the need to try and 'control it' rather than accepting that they're simply part of it. I think the primeval fire gene has long vanished from most from most westerners dna.

Also agree that LNT or at least 'leave less trace' is something we can and should all try to implement on a daily basis.

[Pirahna]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1666986 ... ent_follow

I assume the link to the UK Gravel Bike club is correct. If anyone wants to join, just ignore the pop up with the questions, close it, exit the next one and you're in.

[jameso]

I think the primeval fire gene has long vanished from most from most westerners dna.

The opposite I thought, from what I've read? As I understood it the pace of change in society (eg from 10,000 years or more back, up to now) has meant we've lost touch with a part of our psyche/needs (not sure..) faster than our genetics and brains can adapt to. We're wired for the natural world and animal instincts, pyramid of needs etc. For some it's no problem, they can live in a man-made environment w/o issues. For others it's a cause of discontent and mental health challenges to some extent and most of us here will be on that line in between, hence the need to get away from 'modern life' and back to basics. Whether or how much fire is a part of that, I've no idea ... a likely candidate for a very early and long term part of the pyramid of needs basics though?

And if I came out with all that when I was 9 I may not have got such a bollocking for almost setting fire to a barn

[RIP]

[Bearbonesnorm]

The opposite I thought, from what I've read? As I understood it the pace of change in society (eg from 10,000 years or more back, up to now) has meant we've lost touch with a part of our psyche/needs (not sure..) faster than our genetics and brains can adapt to. We're wired for the natural world and animal instincts, pyramid of needs etc. For some it's no problem, they can live in a man-made environment w/o issues. For others it's a cause of discontent and mental health challenges to some extent and most of us here will be on that line in between, hence the need to get away from 'modern life' and back to basics. Whether or how much fire is a part of that, I've no idea ... a likely candidate for a very early and long term part of the pyramid of needs basics though?

Maybe but I really don't think many people are in-tune with themselves anywhere near enough to realise it ... on the other hand, FB and Instagram

[jameso]

^ yeah ... sharing is caring, works on social media as well as for info on how we don't feck everywhere up too much.

[restlessshawn]

I saw that but couldn't manage a sensible reply without swearing which didn't seem helpful. Glad some grown ups have replied.

I'll often stop to break up fire rings and try and cover things up a bit and tidy up in the hope it won't encourage people, my wife thinks this is odd.

If it's cold and I fancy a fire I go to a bothy...then spend my time cleaning up there.

[Chew]

Alpkit/Alastair Humphrey’s are at it too...

https://www.alpkit.com/news/my-midsumme ... %20Morning

[Jurassic pusher]

I found this photo too, on a different page on the same web site ....

IMG_20190309_131145-1440x1080.jpg

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