The price of stuff.

[Alpinum]

I've got a Jones spaceframe and I've got a ramin plus. One expensive (for me a once in a lifetime thing) and one not expensive by modern mtb standards

Both ride lovely, similar and different, is the Jones x times better than the ramin, no. But it's bloody lovely and makes me smile just looking at it :)

That's the odd thing. Some of my best memories come from riding the cheapest bike I've ever owned. Must be the same for you and your Ramin, ever so appealing bikes.

My cheapest bike - a second hand, covered in stickers, SSP rigid steel bike. It was close to a third of the price of the wheelsets I ride on my other bikes

Reminds me of the folks bouldering and those who aid climb. One only uses a crashpad, slippers and chalk (and a wool hat) the other 50 lbs of climbing hardware, plus a portaledge, sleepingbag etc.
I've had a few discussions with a mate who often goes bouldering. He loves the way he climbs without needing to pump (much) money into the outdoors market craze.

Outdoorclothing and gear is quite bad in that regard. See Alpkit or Cumulus vs. Norröna, PHD or Hilleberg.
The custom Cumulus winter bag has cost me about 40 % of what I would've paid for the same at PHD. Not similar. Same.
Again, there is a way to get around the biggest impact of the pricing.

[firestarter]

Tbh I get my biggest smiles on my 22 year old ss cinder cone :)

[ianfitz]

I didn't intend to dis the HB 160. It's designed, developed and produced over many years in the uk by a company who want, need maybe, to do things right. Employ people who they pay properly. Has as many Hope bits on it as there are. (Except their seat post - it has a dropper)

I'm looking forwards to riding it. Know I'll not be able to get close to doing it justice.

Yes it's a lot of money. But maybe it's actually everything else is too cheap?

A few years ago there was a fair-trade Taylor in Sheffield. Albeit in a small shop in an expensive part of town, but he made clothes out of hemp fabric. Loads of effort went into checking that people at every stage of the process involved were treated and paid properly.

A custom made shirt was £90 and and off the peg one was 75.

That's what it costs to make a shirt that minimises damage to the planet and treats everyone involved properly.

But yet you can buy one for just a few pounds in loads of places. Which is the right price?

[Fat tyre kicker]

Isn't the 7.5k hb160 price not the top suspension package ? I may be wrong
But I read somewhere it could be specced with Ohlins and was even more ?

[Alpinum]

Yes it's a lot of money. But maybe it's actually everything else is too cheap?

A few years ago there was a fair-trade Taylor in Sheffield. Albeit in a small shop in an expensive part of town, but he made clothes out of hemp fabric. Loads of effort went into checking that people at every stage of the process involved were treated and paid properly.

A custom made shirt was £90 and and off the peg one was 75.

That's what it costs to make a shirt that minimises damage to the planet and treats everyone involved properly.

But yet you can buy one for just a few pounds in loads of places. Which is the right price?

Very good point Ian.

[JohnClimber]

I liked the look and sound of Jim Barrow's Spurcycle bell last weekend. £60 for a bell is a bit silly but the Chinese copies don't match the quality of the Spur Bell

Luckily Shona from this parish is looking after me for a couple for my big birthday present from the wife tomorrow, but the money the wife saves will be spent on dog treats for Olive I'm sure

[ianfitz]

Yes it's a lot of money. But maybe it's actually everything else is too cheap?

A few years ago there was a fair-trade Taylor in Sheffield. Albeit in a small shop in an expensive part of town, but he made clothes out of hemp fabric. Loads of effort went into checking that people at every stage of the process involved were treated and paid properly.

A custom made shirt was £90 and and off the peg one was 75.

That's what it costs to make a shirt that minimises damage to the planet and treats everyone involved properly.

But yet you can buy one for just a few pounds in loads of places. Which is the right price?

Very good point Ian.

Thanks. But what I forgot to add was that despite having financial backing beyond and above what many would be able to access, and much positive acclaim and publicity the shop is no longer there. Closed as he couldn't make it work.

I guess people just wouldn't pay those prices.

I didn't buy a shirt, or anything else, from him. Despite most of my (kind of smart ish) work clothes being from Howies, Finisterre and other brands that stand by their product.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I'm certainly not advocating that you fill your boots with cheap, nasty stuff or inferior products and I couldn't give a toss how someone else spends their money - you can't take it with you and all that. I was simply highlighting how prices for certain things appear to have gone beyond what seems 'reasonable'. I built racing bikes for 20 years so appreciate that performance cost money but my shop didn't have a big glass front, which meant I couldn't see my customers coming.

Edit ... forgot Ian's point about the shirts. Completely agree that something bespoke / crafted should carry a higher price tag. It's a shame that society doesn't place greater value on the people who have the skills / knowledge to produce such things.

[jameso]

.. Ian's point about the shirts. Completely agree that something bespoke / crafted should carry a higher price tag. It's a shame that society doesn't place greater value on the people who have the skills / knowledge to produce such things.

Agreed, though I think the issue now is often that a combination of craft and marketing skill is needed to bridge the price gap. People pay for the fuzzy feeling of ownership most as the true value of the craftsmanship isn't often understood - or in the case of UK brazed vs Taiwan TIG, maybe not even very easy to justify. Needs 'story telling' and other things brand agencies will dress up to charge you for - or you do it yourself if you know why you're doing it. If you have skills in both areas you'll do OK but even so I don't know many (any?) custom/bespoke bike businesses that are profitable in the true business sense, it's more a combo of a labour of love keeping the lights on (financially as well as mentally/motivationally).

In all of this it just depends what you place a value on. We're all different there. Alpinum will pay for the performance he wants, I know I'd not look after that level of kit enough to protect my investment and would compromise the spend on complexity to gain durability (rigid frame and often forks too, or a 'beater susser' for hanging off chairlifts and occasional use, etc). Neither option is 'worth' more really. I think the guys who ride basic bikes, are happy that it basically works OK and spend time and most of their money getting to amazing places have it right ... but it just comes down to what you can spend and what value you place on that money, or even what you have to give up to earn it?

[Bearbonesnorm]

or even what you have to give up to earn it?

Very true and often overlooked.

[robsmuddygloves]

As has been said price is relative. For me personally, with two boys, one home educated by my wife and the other a toddler, my money is not my own. This has definitely helped me appreciate the kit I do have, but it has to be durable, certainly not the lightest, but it has to do. Plus, once I'm on my bike I forget how much it costs, or doesn't cost. Never had the pleasure of riding an expensive bike so wouldn't know the difference.

[In Reverse]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-WgGxwoP78

That is what the HB.160 is all about and quite frankly the price is pretty damn reasonable in this instance.

That's a fantasic video Nige. As a bit of a geek, an engineer, and an engineering geek it's easy to see the appeal of owning the bike when it's shown in that context. I'd guess it's the same as owning a Mclaren P1 - in both cases there are probably less costly rivals offering similar performance, but some people want to buy into a British engineering masterclass. And good for them imo.

Nice hearing blokes with the same east Lancashire accent as my dad too.

[pistonbroke]

Fantastic video on the Hope, compare and contrast the Guy Martin visit to Orange. "How do we make an engineering masterpiece" vs "it'll be reet, pass us that hammer"

[Asposium]

Is this simply proof that I'm not in the ST demographic ... or ... a belief that money alone can buy skill / speed / style / fun / ...

you even need to ask?

perhaps they're trying to buy cool?
as I have said before, we're bikepackers, and therefore automatically cool.

[Alpinum]

It's a shame that society doesn't place greater value on the people who have the skills / knowledge to produce such things.

I guess many of us BBers are willing to invest more for stuff coming from transparent craftmanship, likely of smaller and local manufacturers.
Don't we too enjoy getting locally sourced food and beer (and whisky for the Scots) and feel at ease to spend some 10-20 % more, knowing who will profit from what you're paying?
Society in big likely not, but in many countries there's a little shift going on and some of this drips into the bike industry as well.

I know I'd not look after that level of kit enough to protect my investment and would compromise the spend on complexity to gain durability (rigid frame and often forks too, or a 'beater susser' for hanging off chairlifts and occasional use, etc)

To me it's the opposite way.
Say I ride at 80 % on my cheaper, less complex bike, it will be beyond its limit at 110 %, resulting in squishy ride, unprecise, damaged rims, brakes, headsets and cracked frame after 5 years due to fatigue.
Say I ride at 100 % on my more expensive and complex bike, it will be at 80 % of it's capabilities and thus I can sell it after 5 years with only the higher initial investment but lower running costs.

So to say, five cracked steel and alloy frames, two heavily bent steel forks all from two crashes and in three cases from fatigue. In the case of the cracked alloy (crash with a Nicolai Lambda) the suspension fork only needed new bushings.

Just two days ago I took an inside line whilst pedalling and hit a rock so hard it lifted me and my bike's rear. I landed hard and side ways on the rear. Nothing else happened, I didn't even unclip or stop. 420 g carbon rim, nothing special concerning lacing.
In exactly the same spot I made the mistake before and taco'ed an alloy rim of about 500 g. It was bent so badly I couldn't ride anymore.

Was I just lucky to not have those issues with comparable use of carbon frames/parts and suspension forks? I've stopped believing so.
I don't think it's as black and white as others do when it comes to reliabilty of cheaper/less complex vs. more expensive/complex.

Sorry, I'm not trying to make this an alloy/steel vs. carbon discussion, it just feels like an easy discussion platform to show how higher expenses to a certain amount may lead to overall less money spent then going cheap(-ish) for some.

[tommid]

I just tend to buy second hand with frames and wheels, you can get stuff thats hardly used and at a fraction of the RRP.

I don't understand how anyone can justify £7500 on a bike. Not when that could buy you five. Five times the fun.

[ChrisF]

Alpinum's points are totally valid, but he lives and rides in a world that I don't. I suspect that his experiences and skill set represent a tiny fraction of those mountain bikers that buy these £5k+ bikes that we are talking about. Those bikes aren't really aimed at hard riding, skilled and dedicated mountain bikers, just like (say) Porsches aren't aimed at dedicated highly skilled drivers who love tearing round race tracks on a weekend.
In my case, I'm pretty clueless about most of the high end stuff on the market these days, I'm not their demographic thankfully. Much like they used to say that a cold shower would suppress any 'unhealthy urges', I find a few hours battling the elements, mud, rocks and whatever on my old single speed tends to rebalance any urges that I have for a shiny expensive bike

[jameso]

Alpinum's points are totally valid, but he lives and rides in a world that I don't.

Sure, what you prioritize is about where you ride. If you live in the Alps technically you'll improve very fast and you'll put kit under a lot of pressure.

As much as good kit can be a justified purchase, it's still more about the rider than the bike - thinking of a guy who came to our local spot in the late 90s on a very average Kona susser. Was over from SA to do some riding and heard of the track, came to visit. Made the whole track look easy (it wasn't!). Said his name was Greg. ...Minnaar, it turns out. Bikes then had steep angles, QRs, basic shocks, but it was all anyone had and good riders went very fast. Same now, at every jump or DH spot there's always a kid on a basic bike that makes everyone look like they started riding last week : )

[notinabox]

I've recently noticed the obscene price of certain cycle related objects. As an example, todays Fresh Goods over on STW, featured an average looking bike that costs £3800 and numerous sets of wheels, none of which was below a grand. It's not just today either.

Is this simply proof that I'm not in the ST demographic and these prices are actually normal or is it a case that a certain sector of cycling has more money than sense and a belief that money alone can buy skill / speed / style / fun / I could keep going?

BTW - not grumpy, just asking.

I suspect a bit of both (not necessarily a bad thing ), recently. A nigh on 7k bike was featured recently!

[fatbikephil]

I was at Hamsterley forest trail centre this weekend and I was surprised at how many top spec bikes in the £4k plus bracket were kicking around. I've always been happy to chuck dosh at bikes but this just seems too much to tight arse like me. As for the stuff costing 7k plus, its a joke. £6k will get you a trials bike which is state of the art, pretty much what the works riders use and has at least as much tech in the supension as a top spec mtb. It also has an engine with a similar level of tech (the ickle Ti valves in the latest four stroke engines are works of art in their own right!).

I think a certain type of cyclist have always been willing to pay 'whatever it takes' to get the best and the manus seem happy to provide this service. I suppose its keeping the cash in circulation....

[psling]

My random observations :

All types of cycling have seen a boom in interest over the last 6-7 years and we are seeing the resultant boom in development and marketing riding on the back of that increased market / increased spend.

This development and marketing has resulted in new standards requiring higher customer spend e.g. new wheel standards = new frame required, new axle standards = new frame required, new genres of riding (including bikepacking but especially enduro) = new frame required. Even things like carbon rims = disc brakes on road bikes = new frame required.
Add in fluctuations in World market prices and the current lower value of the £ and prices in GB have risen at a time when the market is increasing. Low interest rates and zero interest deals on new bikes and expensive components nullify those price jumps and the market expands further by demand.
It's shiny, it's desirable; it's expensive but it's attainable. That expanding market coupled with relatively easy access to funds sees prices increase as a result.

Similar to htrider at Hamsterley, here at the Pedalabikeaway Centre in FoD, you sit at the cafe any weekend and you'll see hundreds of bikes worth thousands of pounds each plus riders kitted out in hundreds of pounds worth of gear. More interestingly you'll see a large number of youngsters (6 - 12 year old) - which is great to see - but riding mini full sus bikes worth 4 figure sums too!

I know it's relative, there have always been expensive bikes and components but I think it's just the scale of marketing-led demand that makes it so noticeable at the moment. We seem to live in a must-have-it and must-have-it-now world fed by the immediacy of social media and the internet. Companies will make money out of that situation and we're all drawn in at one level or another.

[jameso]

All types of cycling have seen a boom in interest over the last 6-7 years and we are seeing the resultant boom in development and marketing riding on the back of that increased market / increased spend.

I'm not sure it's that way round, but I can see how it looks that way. From an industry perspective things boomed 2007-2012, mainly road bikes, but recently it's been flat - a number of companies struggling with significant overstocks from the (OTT?) range of options presented in MTB, road disc/caliper brake confusion and a move to all-road, etc. Some always do well in this climate but big brands -the ones pushing standards, tech, £9999 bikes, dealers to support, high R+D commitments etc- aren't having an easy time.

That's part of why we have £6k e-MTBs - hope and speculation that it may revive the market based on the boom in practial city e-bikes. I think MTB in the general/'MBUK' sense will be a power-assist sport not too far in the future (not for the likes of the type on here, but generally) but the volume compared to transport bikes is small.
So.. and it's been mumbled about before, not just by me.. perhaps the bike industry could do with less focus on top end sport products and making more bikes for people to use for transport, start figuring out how to make £2500 seem like a fair price for a good transport bike to more people. Big topic I know. Even so, seems like there's too many people making what they want for themselves, not what may do well generally. What may work better for customers vs what they see more of and what they buy based on identity vs practical reasons, that's a feeback loop and one the bike industry in general could do a better job of imo. How else could 'all-road' have taken a decade to become a thing rather than a niche?

It's also been said that when car companies get transport bikes with motors figured out there's a large chunk of the bike industry that may have a challenge to face up to. Maybe. Interesting point I think. Would most non-cyclists buy a Giant or Audi e-bike? Who has a network of dealerships (not that I'd buy a bike from, but that could change easily) and who can make stuff more competitively in a more closed manufacture and distribution set up? Giant are in a good position, not so sure about the other big brands.

A bit OT ... but kind of linked I think. If you can't sell as many bikes overall, sell more top-end kit to those who can afford it.

[psling]

Yes, e-bikes may well be the next-big-thing.

Of course, we tend to look at bikes from the UK/Europe/USA demographic; the much bigger market by numbers is the transport bikes of developing and third-world countries. How many bicycles was it in Beijing?!? I believe at one time there were more bikes manufactured and used in India than the whole of the rest of the world. That may have shifted eastwards now but the high-value western world market is probably a drop in the ocean (by numbers of bikes) compared to India/China/Indonesia.

[jameso]

^ there's a lot of bike in Asia, but if you count bikes costing over $100 new, not so many : )

But yes, if someone figured out how to shift people off scooters and onto low-cost E-bikes they'd do well. As would the air quality.

[boxelder]

I got a full set of new hydraulic disc brakes for my son's bike recently - £40 (full RRP) and they're better than the £00's Hopes I used to have.
Carbon boost forks, 15mm male, new for £85.

Some stuff is much cheaper than it used to be, even ignoring inflation.