Thoughtful Thursday - Just what is it we're after?

[Chicken Legs]

I would like a bottom bracket that doesn't creak !!

Press- fit is already on the wane again

I am not sure who thought a PF30 was progress !!

accountants...

Sounds about right

[Alpinum]

Re: technological change it's axle standards that really bug me.

Do people actually notice the difference and is it beneficial?

Yes. For the first time in my life a 29" feels as stiff as a 26" bike. Boost axles, regular db spokes and carbon rims that are 100-120 g (front) and 50-70 g (rear) lighter than a comparably sized (width, not stiffness) alloy rim.
No more über compliance and soggy feel due to flexing frame and wheels. Though it's surely not for everyone.
I adjusted my riding to how it was chasing a Mondraker Summum with 600 g rims down the steeps.

It's amazing how precise the bike handles. Like a scalpel. I have rarely had some much fun, it's so efficient and has exactly the feel I was looking for to help me evolve as some sort of rider. It goes even further...
I'm waiting for a Fox 36 with some super tune and fancy internals (actually can install it next Monday). So the bike company gave me a RockShock Yari to use until my Fox would arrive. My riding has evolved on that bike in roughly two months in a way that I can push the fork to the point where it's weak damping nearly causes me to crash, no matter how I tune the damping or air can. A professional tuner could fix it, but it's not my fork and I have the Fox.

I could go down this lane with the brakes, bar, stem, saddle and many more.

Some want to relax a bit, but I'm going further, higher, faster. Into areas where I'll seriously hurt or kill myself when the brake, wheels and other parts fail. Still after 20 odd years. I won't back down. And want bikes that support me in my beloved pursuit.

So, yes. For myself I do feel a difference.
Yet, more importantly, do (people/) I need that difference? No, not really, but if it's there I'll test it and if I like it, I may go for it. I may too wait for it to evolve two years or so. It's a free world.

[psling]

Yes. For the first time in my life a 29" feels as stiff as a 26" bike. Boost axles, regular db spokes and carbon rims that are 100-120 g (front) and 50-70 g (rear) lighter than a comparably sized (width, not stiffness) alloy rim.
No more über compliance and soggy feel due to flexing frame and wheels.

That highlights some of the (not very scientific but entirely personal) thoughts that I have about some developments.
The marketing men come up with an idea that may offer a perceived improvement and then the engineers spend the next year or so developing further 'improvements' to make it as good as the original thing being improved on!

Your example - let's introduce a new wheel diameter standard; OK, what can we do to make it as stiff and effective as the previous standard because the new is not as good as the previous? Mmmm, we'll have to introduce a new axle standard. Or we could maybe compromise and introduce an in-between wheel diameter standard!

Let's go 1x at the front. Oh dear, now people can't ride up hills. I know, let's create a dinner-plate cog and an even danglier dangly bit to hit the rocks!

Hey, let's go tubeless. Oops, we're going to have to put white gooey stuff in there to make it as good. Oh, and we're going to have to develop a high-pressure bead-seating inflation system on the trail then we'll be as good as the tubes we're superceding!

(I'm being cynical, I know. A lot of those 'necessary' further developments to make the 'improvements' actually work are in fact quite good developments )

[Lawmanmx]

most people will continue to ride without progress as they Never seem to practice ANY skills during their rides, skills always need to be honed and repeated else they be lost forever (or until you decide to spend time renewing them) but as we get older our urge to do anything that might hurt us wains further and further into the past, when i ride i always try and practice some of the basic skills just to keep a slight edge, where most just go pedal their bikes for miles and miles and miles ect ect ect, not that there's anything wrong with that, but your skills could be called upon at any time during any ride to simply stop you getting hurt ..... so keep yer tools sharp kids

[psling]

most people will continue to ride without progress as they Never seem to practice ANY skills during their rides, skills always need to be honed and repeated else they be lost forever (or until you decide to spend time renewing them) but as we get older our urge to do anything that might hurt us wains further and further into the past, when i ride i always try and practice some of the basic skills just to keep a slight edge, where most just go pedal their bikes for miles and miles and miles ect ect ect, not that there's anything wrong with that, but your skills could be called upon at any time during any ride to simply stop you getting hurt ..... so keep yer tools sharp kids

As a schoolboy doing Judo lessons I learnt how to roll out of a throw; now in my 60th year I still practice this with alarming regularity during bike rides...

[ctznsmith]

Lawmanmx there is some truth in that. On some rides I often think I should be re-riding the sections I balls up until I don't.

[Lawmanmx]

not just riding sections BUT practicing basic skills like balance, braking, cornering, body position and obviously trail furniture

[Bearbonesnorm]

not just riding sections BUT practicing basic skills like balance, braking, cornering, body position and obviously trail furniture

Very true Tony ... I often tell folk that they need to spend more time simply 'nobbing about' on their bike. It produces the occasional sideways look

[fatbikephil]

Back in the eighties I 'rode' all of the classic Lakeland passes on a rigid bike with a 150mm stem. At no point did I think - "I'll leave this trail until they invent full suspension, disk brakes and progressive geometry" I was young and stupid, however.

Progressed to a rigid 'dale (very rigid) then went through the whole suspension fork, suspension frame, better fork, frame etc. Pinnacle was the patriot with a 5" travel bomber as it could go through anything and allowed me to get big doubles horribly wrong and still survive. The 5 that followed never seemed quite as idiot proof but was undoubtably better. This was the beginning of the end - it was just too good - and eventually lead me to go back to a 26er hardtail as this was far more fun. Rigid 29ers were then sampled but were a bit hard on the wrists. Then I test rode a krampus and that was it - goodbye suspension. The fact that suddenly all suspension forks needed a service every other ride was also a factor. It still amazes me that mountainbikers accept this, even on a fork costing a grand....

Now I want fun and challenge. Rigid + or full fat delivers this for me.

[PaulB2]

I was ready to blame the internet and the ease of disseminating information for the balkanisation and precipitous change of the cycling market. Then a child wandered over and peed on me which ruined my train of thought and reduced me to monosyllabic swearing. I dislike potty training far more than the fact that my 2 year old bike.is already theoretically obsolete with it's non-boost hubs, non-plus tyres, non-metric shock and minuscule travel (120 is the new 100 and all that).

[slarge]

I ride the bikes I enjoy riding, some are old, some are newish, all are enjoyed:

My 2002 Stumpy FSR - sold my car to pay for it but wow, what a bike. Still got it but it has morphed into a wide barred bigish tyred trail centre bike (with only 100mm forks and 90mm rear). Suppose i should be ashamed or have died by now riding that, but it is still great fun.
My 2002 Stumpy hardtail - bought for £150 on ebay that turned into a 20lb race bike. Now a singlespeed and great fun. Tend to use it for local spins or hilly social rides or take it on holiday as it wouldn't matter too much if it got nicked.
Carbon 29er hardtail - fast, fun and efficient, just love the way it rolls over stuff I would probably push through if on the other bikes.

I don't think I need a bigger, boosted, plus bike to feel the extra stiffness or practice my skills - in fairness my skills haven't really improved in quite a few years. Tried to learn to manual once - lasted 10 minutes and got bored so rode my bike instead.

What am I after? More time to ride my bike in wilder places. Doesn't have to be techy riding, just fun in the right setting.
Not sure if it is all about the bike.....

(Although if bike companies didn't innovate, would they still be expanding? We see new phones every year or 2, and I am hard pushed to see the benefits of the latest and greatest gadgets, but people want to see stuff moving on, and they will spend their money happily)

[JohnClimber]

Had a full susser as my 2nd bike, went ridid with the Jones and now on Hardtails with Lauf forks, i don't ride anything different that I did before but I was never a downhiller. I ride with my wheels on the ground 99.9999% of the time and don't feel I need any bounce at back, maybe a suspension seat post as I get older.
1 x 11 covers all my bases as well

[Lawmanmx]

not just riding sections BUT practicing basic skills like balance, braking, cornering, body position and obviously trail furniture

Very true Tony ... I often tell folk that they need to spend more time simply 'nobbing about' on their bike. It produces the occasional sideways look

indeed Stu, loads of peeps i know who ride just wanna smash tons of miles out every ride (again, which is fine) but nothing will ever be learned by doing that and there is Sooooo much fun to be had by as you say 'Nobbing about'

[Dave Barter]

not just riding sections BUT practicing basic skills like balance, braking, cornering, body position and obviously trail furniture

Very true Tony ... I often tell folk that they need to spend more time simply 'nobbing about' on their bike. It produces the occasional sideways look

indeed Stu, loads of peeps i know who ride just wanna smash tons of miles out every ride (again, which is fine) but nothing will ever be learned by doing that and there is Sooooo much fun to be had by as you say 'Nobbing about'

Why will nothing ever be learned by that?

[metalheart]

Indeed, I need to go back to Kintail with the Occam (and some company).

*Waves*

I'll still get off and push any scary bits admittedly.

Wot he wrote. +1. Kintail is on my I really need to try and get this done this year list. Along with the GGW and the outer hebrides....

[psling]

Why will nothing ever be learned by that?

You need to ask!?! Have you learnt nothing...!

(thought the same thing myself actually Dave)

[voodoo_simon]

The small changes in a bike can make a huge difference. I used to work in a shop that sold Whyte bikes, the rims in 2016 were 21mm and for 2017, they went to 28mm (IIRC). Made a big difference to how the tyre performed and also allowed for a wider tyre that would deflect less, great for those longer travel bikes.

Why will nothing ever be learned by that?

You need to ask!?! Have you learnt nothing...!

(thought the same thing myself actually Dave)

I guess if you just ride straight through everything, you won't know if your improving or not. If you have to stop and try again, then you're learning the process involved and coming away a better rider.

I guess we've all done it, riding a technical climb and we come to a stop. We just then get off the bike and push up, but if we went back down again and seasoned that section, we've become better riders (or pissed off our mates waiting for us )

[Bearbonesnorm]

I think Tony might have been a little too black and white in his observation, so here's some grey ... imagine you have difficulty with a certain something, lifting the front wheel over drainage ditches, slow switchback turns, whatever. If you go out on a 6 hour ride, you'll probably only be riding 'technical' stuff for maybe 20 or 30 minutes and you might not encounter those things you struggle with. However, spend 20 or 30 minutes directly practicing switchbacks and you will see progress at quite a rate.

Something I see a lot, is peoples inability to ride slowly (with control). I put it down to the fact it's something most people never practice, yet it's an invaluable skill which has a massive positive impact on all aspects of riding ... very easy to practice by simply 'nobbing about' outside your house

Anyway, as you were.

[Lawmanmx]

seems to have been answered by the last few posts

[whitestone]

I went on an Ed Oxley skills course, just about the first thing he had us practising was to track stand on the basis that it taught you to balance on the bike. Easy to practise out on the trail or "nobbing about" as it doesn't require anything other than your bike - get to a gate, track stand while you wait for your mate to arrive, etc.

Twenty odd years ago I got run over, ending up with a full length cast on my leg for three months so spent the convalescent time by learning to touch type. The program recommended a maximum of one hour a day but you needed to be doing it every day. Fifteen minutes or so every day to learn/practise a skill shouldn't be too hard. The biggest problem might be infrastructure if you want to learn jumps for example.

[Bearbonesnorm]

The biggest problem might be infrastructure if you want to learn jumps for example.

Less than you might think Bob ... technique is technique and it's surprising what you can learn with something as simple as a kerb.

[whitestone]

The biggest problem might be infrastructure if you want to learn jumps for example.

Less than you might think Bob ... technique is technique and it's surprising what you can learn with something as simple as a kerb.

Don't come back at me with your hi-tech solutions! Kerb indeed This is Yorkshire, kerbs cost money don't tha' know!

[deft punk]

The biggest problem might be infrastructure if you want to learn jumps for example.

Less than you might think Bob ... technique is technique and it's surprising what you can learn with something as simple as a kerb.

Bob in a week or so...

[psling]

Agree that bike skills can be incorporated into any ride but you can learn things from "smashing out the miles" too such as cadence, pacing, etc.. Maybe not rad skilz but learning all the same.
Going on from what whitestone says, when I used to take leader training courses the first outdoors thing I did was run a last-man-standing competition within a confined space followed by a 'slow race'. Dab and you're out kind of thing. I have never done skills coaching though, only leadership, but basic trail skills were always included as part of the courses.
On the other hand it amuses me sometimes to watch some riders disappearing down the trail like a load of demented rabbits hopping about all over the place; perhaps there's also a skill to be learnt about riding in a manner that allows the bike to survive a multi day ride too!

[jam bo]

my trail bike(120mm FS 29r) today is way faster and more capable than my DH bike was 20yrs ago. And about half the weight. And I can ride it all day and strap luggage to it if I want to. and it cost me under a grand to build.

Stay a year or two behind the 'bleeding edge' of technology and you can reap the rewards without the pain of constantly feeling the need to keep up.

Recently though, I've started trail running after realising on a couple of exploratory dartmoor rides I'd ruined a perfectly good run by taking a bike for a walk.