Sorry Stu but I am blatantly pinching your post on the weight of kit thread and throwing it out there.
I believe it warrants discussion in its own right...

Bearbonesnorm wrote:
What you're going to read next is perhaps something that may only apply to a small % of people but I know it does apply to others besides me and can really help to reduce what you're carrying .... there are some people who take a certain pleasure in the act of 'enduring'. I'm not talking about suffering, I'm talking about enduring which is possibly the same as suffering but you'll be smiling while doing it - and it's the smiling that makes the difference. Knowing that you can rise above (Zen-like ) hardship or discomfort is actually a great feeling, you all but stop worrying about things, you care far less about what kit you have or don't and it really is quite liberating.

Perhaps you have to be of a certain character or make-up, I don't know but remember ... it's not suffering if you're either enjoying the experience or you simply don't care.


I did warn you at the start, didn't I?

Oooh, that should be a whole new thread

The tipping point between enduring and suffering will vary greatly between different people (and can indeed be influenced by the people you may be with at the time).
I can often experience a period of what for me is mental suffering during a trip, possibly due to weather conditions in certain terrain for example, but will look back on it afterwards with a sort of masochistic pleasure, a sense of satisfaction that I have endured that suffering if you like. It's surprising how the pain is forgotten in the warm afterglow of reminiscing!
On the other hand, work colleagues cannot understand for one moment why I go out in sub-zero temperatures to sleep in a bag in the middle of nowhere. I do that because I enjoy it, not to endure it.

The good old ‘character building rides’ but but but, I’m quite happy with my character as it is...!

I think we all have a limit, it just varies from one person to another For me, providing I’m relatively warm (I.e my core is ok), then I’ll crack on in in any weather. Only once have a cut a ride short in the last two years due to poor weather and that was more down to poor clothing choice and not being to rewarm myself (as a side note, a Vauxhall Cora heater is rubbish - asthmatic mouse could blow more hot air out ).

I do work with people who won’t ride their bikes if the wind is slightly blowy or a chance of rain, they’ll get the turbo out. Really can’t connect with that! I’d much prefer to head to the hills in the dark after work for a ride or run whatever the weather. They can’t understand me riding home, to get changed to drive to the hills to run...

In terms of suffering, I can only really ‘suffer’ if the end is in sight! If I know I can get to the end of a ride, or keep chipping away, then suffering is bearable. If I’m suffering on day 1 of a 3 or 4 day ride (for example), then I’ll no doubt will only see the big picture and will cut the ride short.

Having a goal or an event to train for always helps with motivation, as does having children. Either I ride at that planned time or it could be a few days etc before my next opportunity to get out. This normally gets me out.

I guess commuting has made it easier to get out in bad weather, either I ride into work or I don’t get paid Porbably the biggest motivational factors for my riding!

I was thinking of that by Stu just now on the way to masjid (mosque to anyone thats passed the British Values test or whatever its called these days ) and thought to myself I need to just go get on with it (ie. Do the 85 miler commute back from work this week after a night shift, or better still ride there and back which would be a 160 miler round trip with some enduring climbs on the way back)...

I've been enlightened and must do more... I'll take 2 bags of Enduring please sir...

NB. Due to visa restrictions from the Home Office (not Mr Javed or whatever the Home Sec is called but the missus) I need to be home for childs parents eve before going to work so cannot ( note the Queens English) make the train ride to work. So instead am gonna ride to Blackburn tomoz and post an envelope (containing the Crikey, how much Festive500 badge) to my mate and save myself 90p

Its not suffering though is it? Suffering is when you have no choice, we don't suffer as we can stop for a brew / meal / pint when we feel like it. And riding a bike hard doesn't cause suffering, just a bit of leg pain and a bit of tiredness. It will end when you stop for a rest so really its a fairly easy thing to deal with.

On a related note I read some beeb article recently about a pro roadie moaning on about how much they 'suffer' and I think he even had the gall to suggest its the nearest thing to dying that any athlete comes. What a load of complete nonsense. If you want to know about suffering ask someone whose had cancer.

I don't suffer well on my own but in company I seem to cope better

I just plan not to suffer whereas many (and I do mean on here too) seem to relish it as a badge of honour.

htrider wrote:Its not suffering though is it? Suffering is when you have no choice, we don't suffer as we can stop for a brew / meal / pint when we feel like it. And riding a bike hard doesn't cause suffering, just a bit of leg pain and a bit of tiredness. It will end when you stop for a rest so really its a fairly easy thing to deal with.

On a related note I read some beeb article recently about a pro roadie moaning on about how much they 'suffer' and I think he even had the gall to suggest its the nearest thing to dying that any athlete comes. What a load of complete nonsense. If you want to know about suffering ask someone whose had cancer.

This.

Plus it’s important to remember it’s a choice we’ve made based on our privilege. Financial in buying kit and bike, taking the time off work, travelling to the start. Personal in being physically and mentally healthy enough to push that hard in the first place.

Sure it can hurt, be cold, rainy, go wrong, get lost, break our bikes or kit and force us into changing our plans. We can be scared, angry, frustrated, agonised, end up having some of the most intense and meaningful experiences, forge friendships stronger than brother or sisterhood. But never actually suffer.

It all depends on the state of mind, for instance a week or so ago I set out for a long ride.The big loop took me close to home in the way back, while tired I had to fight the temptation to turn towards home and endured the extra to clock up 100k, perhaps if the weather was bad and the had no choice it could have tipped towards suffering. I tend to enjoy my rides even the tough ones l, if I actually suffered I’m not sure I’d go out.

Yeah, I'm with Ian and htrider here, still, I don't think many/any would really compare a hard time on the bike to more serious situations.

I set off sometimes knowing I may well end up outside my comfort zone or exposed to bad weather etc and I like that sort of ride from time to time, maybe some people need it as many aspects of life are just a bit dull and easy otherwise. But it's my choice, it's endured or managed as far as possible knowing that a few hours later or the next day I have comforts to return to.
I have felt the need for bigger tests in the past, taking away that return option for longer, always seen in hindsight as positive even if at the time there were periods that were pretty grim. I think there's something in the contast between discomfort or longer term exposure to the outdoors (that will always bring some discomfort?), and natural beauty. Something that raises perception of the beauty in it all, or heightens the reaction to it. Whether that perception rise comes from that or something else I'm not sure. Seems the obvious link but maybe not. IANAP.

Oh look... There's some fluff in there too. It's blue, but I was wearing a white T yesterday. How?

Just reading down through the thread and it looks like I may have being right about the different character aspect and how that will affect or distort our view ... and yes, most of us have no idea what 'suffering' actually is. Perhaps we should use the word 'discomfort' instead so as not to belittle true suffering and the courage of those that face it.

Colin's point about wearing it as a badge of honour may well be true ... BUT I don't see it as a nagative. Why shouldn't someone be proud of their ability to keep going. Why shouldn't you take a degree of satisfaction from knowing you've 'overcome' or 'endured'? It's perhaps more of a mental attribute than a physical one but surely that doesn't make it less valuable? Just as the human body can be trained for feats of endurance, so can the mind and having the ability shouldn't be something to be ashamed of or apologised for.

Bearbonesnorm wrote:It's perhaps more of a mental attribute than a physical one but surely that doesn't make it less valuable? Just as the human body can be trained for feats of endurance, so can the mind and having the ability shouldn't be something to be ashamed of or apologised for.

This.

I chat with a fair few roadie types who're now into 'bikepacking™' and I repeatedly talk about the ability to keep going mentally being just as important as physical fitness.

Loads of roadies are in great shape and really good at 'suffering' in the usual muscle fatigue way but go to pieces when there aren't enough gels or it rains or it gets cold or it's muddy etc...*

(*disclaimer: and loads don't, loads are hardcore as fook)

For me personally there's as much 'training' (for want of a better word) in developing the mental endurance to put in 12, 14, 16 hour days in the saddle before an event as there is physical.

No matter how crap my physical condition is I'll finish anything given sufficient mental strength (though slower than almost every other human).

Maybe the distinction is that you choose to endure whereas there's no choice when you suffer. The Iditarod is on-going at the moment, that's enduring whereas if you were out there after an accident and struggling to get to shelter then that would be suffering.

There's an increasing tendency in society, it's been going on for many years now, to use polarising, extreme, terms to emphasise a point. So the use of the word "hate" rather than "dislike" would be an example. Common in the "other place" is the assumption that if you don't like something then you hate it* whereas you might simply have no interest in the subject so are effectively neutral. The press have to make everything dramatic to sell copy or get viewers. It's just tedious.

* To be fair most of those who were like that no longer seem to post.

I just plan not to suffer whereas many (and I do mean on here too) seem to relish it as a badge of honour.

this in the main the suffering is in the distance and the challenge - its not like we have set out with an 1953 bike , a canvas tent, no waterproofs and not enough food or water to make it.

I find the older i get the less i have the ability to suffer- i know i can endure it*, i know i can survive but when sat in my warm office planning bike trips i dont dream of three day trips with 50 mph winds, vertical rain, deep bogs to traverse and river crossings that may take my life., the trails are ALWAYS dry and dusty.



* perhaps when i was younger these were tests I could pass or fail now, as I age they are, just trials i can avoid or endure as i know i will pass if i can make myself do it. It is either a mental strength failing or just good preparation

Since starting to to ride ( only since 2016 and then it was little by little till last year rehabbing my leg) every ride I've done has involved some discomfort but I would never say I've been suffering. Some of it has been quite unpleasant and a shock to the system but I've always been brought up to wipe your mouth and crack on ,it's nice to have a spin what's flat and pleasant but I get a little bit more pleasure knowing that a year ago I would have struggled to do what I do now ,and the same will apply next year ,I'm not saying the unpleasantness is what I set out to find it just seems to find me ,and when you look at the whole of a ride it's normally a very small acceptable part of getting out ,I used to hate the walk in to some climbs but did it as I wanted the climbs

Another angle (my angle ): assuming "suffering" is one end, "enjoying" is the other end, and "enduring" is in the middle somewhere (& maybe with lots of other -ings spread between them); then I have no middle - I don't "endure" ANY ride, I enjoy them all, all the time, whatever's happening. Sometimes laugh-out-loud enjoy. Sometimes thank-my-lucky-stars-and-so-grateful that i'm RIGHT here RIGHT now doing THIS. Sometimes so euphoric I realise I'm saving a fortune on Class 1 drugs. Recent example - Winter Bivi, which coincidentally HAD 50mph winds, rain, ice, fog, and a VERY annoying uphill after the pub . Enjoyed the whole thing from the moment I left my house until the moment I went back in the door, to a large extent because of the people I was with but for everything else as well.

'Reg'

Enjoy the best worst day.

Another angle (my angle ): assuming "suffering" is one end, "enjoying" is the other end, and "enduring" is in the middle somewhere (& maybe with lots of other -ings spread between them); then I have no middle - I don't "endure" ANY ride, I enjoy them all, all the time, whatever's happening. Sometimes laugh-out-loud enjoy. Sometimes thank-my-lucky-stars-and-so-grateful that i'm RIGHT here RIGHT now doing THIS. Sometimes so euphoric I realise I'm saving a fortune on Class 1 drugs. Recent example - Winter Bivi, which coincidentally HAD 50mph winds, rain, ice, fog, and a VERY annoying uphill after the pub . Enjoyed the whole thing from the moment I left my house until the moment I went back in the door, to a large extent because of the people I was with but for everything else as well.

That's exactly what I'm saying Reg - with the correct Worzul Gummidge head on you can enjoy anything. There's delight to be found in the most unlikely of places but it's not really a case of knowing where to look ...... it's a case of knowing how to look.

Sorry reg but you could have spent the night in the beer garden and had tea served to you the next morning or as you did give me the stare of death but wake up to this view
(Yes this was the morning after)

Yep MaM, even with the gimlet stare of death I was actually enjoying meself .

Bit worried that I'm a dead ringer for Mr Gummidge now!

Depends what's on your helmet at the time

'you can enjoy anything'. Well everything apart from rap 'music' obviously . And prunes.

PS. I'll modify my previous post to say that of course the main time I don't enjoy a ride is if someone gets damaged - obviously.

Reg and the gimlet stare of death on the Winter Bivvy 2018 ... I think.

. I'm getting confused with Catweazle now too!

Pleeeze someone get us back on topic before Stig Of The Dump is referenced!

Now you mention it ....

RIP wrote:assuming "suffering" is one end, "enjoying" is the other end, and "enduring" is in the middle somewhere (

Type 1, 2 and 3 fun then, n'est-ce pas? Enduring says to me gritting your teeth and getting through it (last few hours of a long ITT perhaps) which adds flavour to the overall experience. Suffering would be after you've decided to pack it in and are limping your way back to the car with the squits, saddle sores, a muscle strain or whatever.

htrider wrote:On a related note I read some beeb article recently about a pro roadie moaning on about how much they 'suffer' and I think he even had the gall to suggest its the nearest thing to dying that any athlete comes. What a load of complete nonsense. If you want to know about suffering ask someone whose had cancer.

This argument doesn't hold any weight imo - it's a false equivalence.

Broken leg there mate? Suffering are you? Don't think so. If you want to know about suffering ask someone whose had cancer.
Anxiety and depression? That's not suffering. If you want to know about suffering ask someone whose had cancer.
etc

"Suffering" is the correct word to use when experiencing cramp, insomnia and wind* so it's absolutely fine to use it to describe the regime a lot of pro road cyclists have to put themselves through.

*having all three simultaneously is possible in the bivvy after a few pints of particularly acrid bitter following a long day on the bike. Definite suffering.