• The 2022 Tour Divide watchers thread.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:59 pm**

jay91 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:19 am Looks like Steve is nearly at 150miles not long after midnight

Big day of climbing for Steve today.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:07 pm**

Richard G wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:38 am Crazy, Sofiane is nearly at the US border already.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm even the same species as some of these people!

What's somewhat worrying is that Sofiane is already some 4hrs ahead of the next rider. I'm assuming that he'll be block riding to get a sizeable lead then a decent kip hoping that when he gets going again he's still in the lead.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:52 pm**

10ish miles to go.

He doesn't look to have slept yet and didn't he do something similar in the silk road race?

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:02 pm**

I watched his (Sofiane Sehelli) interview post Silk Road the other day. Apparently he has a condition that means he can function on as little as 2 hours sleep per day, this is his normal state, not just in racing mode. I'd expect him to just keep going and pull out an enormous lead over those who will eventually need to get a decent kip. True insomniac racing.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:36 pm**

Apparently he has a condition that means he can function on as little as 2 hours sleep per day

i have a similar condition. mine is that i have to eat every 2 houurs.............

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:42 pm**

A great descent down to the border.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:03 pm**

Personally, I can’t help but feel somewhat uncomfortable about the push towards ever less sleep in these sorts of events.
It just isn’t sustainable or attainable for most people, and it certainly isn’t healthy for anyone.

Maybe my view of human nature is poor but I can only see a drift towards pharmacology for some competitors in order to keep up in this particular arms race.

Is there a case for some sort of enforced stoppage time in future events of this nature? A prescription of hours per day or week for example?

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:21 pm**

lune ranger wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:03 pm Personally, I can’t help but feel somewhat uncomfortable about the push towards ever less sleep in these sorts of events.
It just isn’t sustainable or attainable for most people, and it certainly isn’t healthy for anyone.

Maybe my view of human nature is poor but I can only see a drift towards pharmacology for some competitors in order to keep up in this particular arms race.

Is there a case for some sort of enforced stoppage time in future events of this nature? A prescription of hours per day or week for example?

While there's no denying that all these racers are riding at a level far above anything I'm capable of, it does seem like the key to success in these events is as much down to the ability to survive on minimal sleep as it is on riding fast.
Sooner of later its going to end badly ( I guess it already has with Mike Hall) and end up in court. Organisers will be found guilty of running an event where being competitive is only acheivable through sleep deprivation, possibly ending all such events in that country and possibly further afield.
As all riders are tracked it would still maintain a level playing field if each was mandated "X" hours of rest in 24 or as an average every 24hr over the course of an event.
If anything it would make the racing closer as a greater number of riders become capable of competing with those who can survive on 2 hors of sleep. As it stands I'm sure many riders are munching on Pro-Plus along with the ibuprofen.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:33 pm**

The Tour Aotearoa in New Zealand has an enforced stop of 6hrs (I think) in every 24, rules here http://www.touraotearoa.nz/p/rules_27.html

Interestingly a friend completed in one of the international Big's BackYard events. This is a 4.1666 mile loop. You have one hour to complete the loop. One minute before the hour is up you have to be present at the start line to continue with the next lap. The "race" continues until there is only one person for the final lap. (The reason for the loop being 4.1666 miles is that it leads to 100 miles per 24 laps/hrs). The format is actually extremely fair and women have won, as happened with my friend - he was last loser! The reason for the name? The format was devised by Gary Cantrell who founded the Barkley Marathons, he had a dog named Big that used to run around his backyard.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:37 pm**

Perhaps worth remembering that perhaps only something like 5% of those riding will likely be adopting the sleep deprivation approach. The very tip of the pointy end is a very different place to the remainder of the field.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:41 pm**

lune ranger wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:03 pm Personally, I can’t help but feel somewhat uncomfortable about the push towards ever less sleep in these sorts of events.
It just isn’t sustainable or attainable for most people, and it certainly isn’t healthy for anyone.

Maybe my view of human nature is poor but I can only see a drift towards pharmacology for some competitors in order to keep up in this particular arms race.

Is there a case for some sort of enforced stoppage time in future events of this nature? A prescription of hours per day or week for example?

The "ever less sleep" ship has sailed for the TD and I can't recall any incidents where its caused a problem.

I can't see how mandating stops could be done without the organisers taking a much bigger hand in the running.

I guess we'd also need another category of FKT.

1. Trad FKT
2. FKT with media
3. FKT with enforced stops

Whilst I don't want anyone to doze off and ride over a cliff I have zero interest in following events with organised stops.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:07 pm**

Johnny, It's not too hard with trackers and doesn't need to be at fixed locations: at some point during the day (0000 to 2359), you have to remain at one location for six hours. That does give each individual some leeway - if a storm's coming in you wait where you are and sit out the bad weather and possibly avoid some of the peanut butter on the trail.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:19 pm**

Are PED’s ever discussed in the context of these races? There are no doping controls (I’m not suggesting there should be) and we already know there has been some of the biggest names in this sort of riding who have probably cheated in other ways.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:34 pm**

Good solid start for Steve, a good sleep and now going again

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:58 pm**

lune ranger wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:19 pm Are PED’s ever discussed in the context of these races? There are no doping controls (I’m not suggesting there should be) and we already know there has been some of the biggest names in this sort of riding who have probably cheated in other ways.

PED's ? Performance enhancing drugs? The Highland 550 results page for 2019 ( i think) at one time said there were no results given for that year due to a suspicion of drug taking, although it no longer says that.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:09 pm**

lune ranger wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:03 pm Personally, I can’t help but feel somewhat uncomfortable about the push towards ever less sleep in these sorts of events.
It just isn’t sustainable or attainable for most people, and it certainly isn’t healthy for anyone.

Maybe my view of human nature is poor but I can only see a drift towards pharmacology for some competitors in order to keep up in this particular arms race.

Is there a case for some sort of enforced stoppage time in future events of this nature? A prescription of hours per day or week for example?

I think Further (set up by one of the regular TCR riders) is setup like that.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:15 pm**

I would be surprised if its not already happening - its either that or there are quite a few people who can go for 12 + days with no sleep - not that i have ever met anyone like this in the real world.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:20 pm**

I can confirm that I wasn't offered any columbian marching powder at any time on the divide.

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:32 pm**

Richpips wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:20 pm I can confirm that I wasn't offered any columbian marching powder at any time on the divide.

Maybe you should have kept going at Antelope Wells then

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:52 pm**

Apparently Sofiane has no sleeping kit.

http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/ultra- ... 00225/#new

Posted: **Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:58 pm**

I can confirm that I wasn't offered any columbian marching powder at any time on the divide

Not likely to win it so why waste it

Sofiane has no sleeping kit

Posted: **Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:55 am**

Looks like our (hope you don't mind me saying that SLARGE) Steve and Zoe are just 2 miles behind each other.

Does anyone know why Mike Halls legendary dot isn't showing up please? Is it cos Sofiane or/others have already passed him or is it cos it's a totally dirrent route this year . Sorry for my ignorance if I've missed it or if it's obvious!

[edit: and I hate to ask this but it keeps coming up in my mind - does anyone know if Josh has his support crew with him this year?

].

Posted: **Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:07 am**

*i meant media crew (obviously).

Posted: **Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:32 am**

Richpips wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:52 pm Apparently Sofiane has no sleeping kit.

http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/ultra- ... 00225/#new

I assume his plan would be a motel if he really needs it?

Posted: **Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:46 am**

Richpips wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:20 pm [...]columbian marching powder [...]

never heard that term before.

I was offered some coca leaves to chew on in the Puna de Atacama one early evening. Tasted good. After a while I realised that I had upped my pace and started to feel edgy & nervous, so I spat it out in fear of not being able to sleep, given the late daytime. It might habe helped to deal with the fox that came to visit me in the night.

Otherwise nono for me (cocaine).

lune ranger wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:19 pm Are PED’s ever discussed in the context of these races? There are no doping controls (I’m not suggesting there should be) and we already know there has been some of the biggest names in this sort of riding who have probably cheated in other ways.

I'm sure many are taking stuff. Likely mostly pain killers ("Vitamin I"), NSAIDs, caffeine. Why would it be any different than any other long distance event?

There was some discussion about drugs on the Silk Road thread:

Alpinum wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:56 am
BobCatMax wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:35 pm James H mentioned in Nelson's live insta feed of him finishing that he'd had too much caffeine after getting told off by his wife for swearing too much..

I assume you're talking about something a little harder..?

Yeah, caffeine just as much as any "harder" drug. It's always (just) a question of how much.
Micro dosed acid works very different compared to regular dosing for a psychedelic trip. Same with caffeine.
During an all-nighter after 5 days of biking with rather little sleep I pushed/rode my bike in a drowsy state up a part of the WHW and realised that I was lightly hallucinating and rather pathic. Two WinForce shots with each 160 mg caffeine and I entered a different world. Even my mood lightened, I had the sensation my body would put me through when riding a downhill, when all the lights (in the brain, not the torches) are switched back on.
Caffeine can be bought as pills. The ones I know contain 200 mg. It's dead easy to get hands on, socially accepted etc. and dead easy to put yourself through a crazy trip if dosed accordingly. I never tried it, I likely will never feel the need to do so, but what happens at 600 mg caffeine for a 80 kg person? Or 1 g even?

Thinking about the AMR:

Red Bull:
Salut Sofiane. Nous aimerions te supporter.
Sofiane:
Je peux voler sans leur soutiens.

Having used caffeine with amazing effects and seen what cocaine, ephederine, amphetamines, methamphetamines and speed did/do with my friends who still regularly visit/organise goa parties, I wonder if he gets some help too.
They go on dancing, chatting, eating, drinking and having fun with no sleep from Friday morning to Sunday afternoon/evening. After a long sleep and mostly regular work under the week, they then repeat that. Some used to repeat it week for week. I'd come back home from strenuous mountaineering trips Fri-Sun on little sleep and be tired and smoke charas with my roommates who came back from such parties, seemingly feeling tired in a similar way, obviously for other reasons. Up to that point they had been awake for about 58 hours, organising a party, dancing, cleaning up etc.

Extreme alpinism taken to the himalayas is quite drug heavy - I know it first hand from such alpinists. From sleep pills to calm the nerves at BC to stimulative psychoactive drugs (not just, but also caffeine). And then there's the whole mess with Diamox (Acetazolamide) and dexamethasone.
The studies done at triathlons show staggering abuse of drugs (mostly painkillers and NSAIDs).
Blogs about mixing high dosed painkillers with NSAIDS during wilderness races like the AMWC indicate drug use even in grassroots events.
I used caffeine towards the end of HT550 (2016) and Seretide (Fluticason-propionate and Salmeterole - similar to what Froome used and just about every single road pro/mtb pro uses, because they, like I, all suffer from some sort of Asthma ) and felt how it improved both my mental and physical situation. During my first HT (2013) I got a sore knee climbing out of Ft. Bill and took 75 mg Voltaren (3 x 25 mg, it's an NSAID) on the last leg.
Lee Craigie had to scratch during the TD due to an allergic reaction against drugs (NSAIDs like Ibuprofen, called Vitamin I in the US, naproxen and Aspirin are on top of the list of drugs causing such reactions), Lael Wilcox seemed to have shown similar symptoms during her (first?) TD a few years back (I might be wrong on this) and openly admits/shows, how important caffeine is to her. Why did Josh Kato collapse the way he did? Was he on drugs? Our bodies don't like what some of them/us do. Kidneys and liver are stressed already just by the nature of riding long days back to back on little sleep. Give them drugs and the stress may reach levels causing much larger problems than just a rash.

I'm sure everyone on here who took part during a bikepacking event with some sort of a focus on time and speed will have stories about meds and loads of coffee. Own stories or such about the other gal/guy continuing their ride with 1.5 L of coffee after a stop at the petrol station. Quite normal, no?
Pro roadies... well... the medical attention they get is staggering. Froome and Salbutamol as one of many, many examples. You can actually abuse this drug heavily and still not scratch at the urine levels by regulations. Where are the blood tests? So much is wrong in that "sport".
Bikepacking thankfully is free of such and this means we can ride as stoned as we want.

I stated above:
I wonder if he gets some help too.
To be honest, I was lying. I don't wonder if he gets some help.

There are no regulations, so no one has a reason to bother about being open about any drug use.
Would be interesting to see what he uses.

You might want to read on, if such a discussion is of interest.

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