techno wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:42 pm rue and lael give their side on this pod: https://bikesordeath.com/podcast/
and sofiane sehil chipps in on the next episode.

I got a ways through it.

Bit weird. The "journalism" is a bit average, in terms of detachment and impartiality, IMO. Seemed quite one sided / Team Lael and Rue (which was an odd thing too as only one is the exceptional ultra-distance back-packing "athlete"). It might not be the case for the whole thing. Called it "the FKT" everytime I heard it mentioned so not sure they're playing the "asterisked" game

Far as I can tell she doesn't accept the "rules" and doesn't agree they are there to prevent potential improvements (in time) or support. Seems a bit blinkered to me. I'm not saying it did but it COULD and maybe not for her but might for others. If you follow the rules that variable is removed and the "field" is levelled for all. Guess this bobbins is just the natural progression of people giving a sub standard about who did *it* fastest.

Mleh

These are against current rules would " we" accept this as FKT or as cheating?

FK(Supported)T perhaps. Similar to looking at the fasted times on a bike across the USA by comparing the RAAM and the Trans-Am I suppose.


General waffle from me, that's all... I'm not one for rules generally but I think in this area it's interesting because the experience changes with the style of the ride and ethics and trust are such a big part of it. There aren't many things left in life that can push someone so hard yet are wide open to cheating or dishonesty (edit, well, aside from sport and life in general! I was thinking about 'gentleman's agreement' races really). Maybe ethics fill the gap left by excessive rules and if some online waffle is how the ethics are maintained or revised, so be it : ) The parallels with climbing ethics always interested me too though I realise that's a totally different activity to measure against.

I suppose if you want the purest experience you'd need to ITT unannounced, no time claimed, minimum support of any kind, done only for your own experience. It could be a valuable experience to the rider but it would have no effect on anyone else. I wouldn't have had some of the life experiences I've had from cycling if riders didn't report back to some extent, there would be nothing to make me wonder 'what if'? So I have to be pro-promotion and recognise the costs of that direction.

I'll play the "It's all a global conspiracy" card!
Could the sponsored people doing ITT's be pushing for the rules to change to accommodate film crews, by whatever means, in order to increase sponsorship opportunities (and wages?) and benefits? Or is it the sponsors themselves doing this? People Like Lael Wilcox are stating that the media coverage is part of promoting the activity to a wider audience but the hardened cynic in me always thinks about where the money is.

It's a fairly well established method of changing rules - a vocal group of key players ignore the rules and they have to change to follow them or else the key players will go elsewhere - much like Rugby league / union which was about making the sport more media friendly. In the case of ITT's, the stars just ignore the no media involvement rule, repeatedly state that they have followed the rules and got the FKT's then wait for the organisers to catch up. Of course the organisers, being non paid enthusiasts, could turn round and tell the stars to stuff it but they will likely carry on anyway, sort of creating a de-facto 'Top Fuel class'

I've noticed Bikepacking.com is keeping quiet about this. Even its ITT ethics article avoided the media involvement stuff and focused on more outright cheating.....

^ 'follow the money'.

Seems like there are rules per race/event but nothing that covers self-supported racing in general apart from online debate. Is the general Q here, if you go for a FKT on a route outside of the main race/event on that route - are you bound by the race's rules?
If you wanted to be listed on the race website as an ITT time, yes. But if you wanted to talk about a general FKT, maybe not.
In some route cases you might recognize the route wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the organiser so it's right to follow their rules. That's not the case for every route though. Where the route existed before the race maybe it's back to the online debate version of general rules or ethics (ie who knows...).

She (he) is also genuinely nails! She (he) can do whatever the hell she (he) wants to IMHO.

Said the international cycling community of Froome, when he decided to go and do a bit of sports-washing with Israel (apparently according to my local MP, a very complex situation is that there apartheid goings on and certainly the Royals agree [with 'can do whatever the heck they want'* strategie/policies].

*see 'Queens Speech Divestment and Sanctions' etc

NB: Just saying

redefined_cycles wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:07 pm

She (he) is also genuinely nails! She (he) can do whatever the hell she (he) wants to IMHO.

Said the international cycling community of Froome, when he decided to go and do a bit of sports-washing with Israel (apparently according to my local MP, a very complex situation is that there apartheid goings on and certainly the Royals agree [with 'can do whatever the heck they want'* strategie/policies].

*see 'Queens Speech Divestment and Sanctions' etc

NB: Just saying

There's drawing parallels and then there's what you've done here!

Just saying

I suppose money and ethics will always be uncomfortable bed-fellows and it's (a) up to the individual to gauge how to play things and (b) except any incoming flak if the masses don't agree with their take on it.

After all the shouting, nothing changes the fact that it's the organisers bat and ball and if you're not going to abide by their 'rules' then you should perhaps just f*ck off and start your own game. When pushed, we can justify any decision we make and to say that you can do what you like because it's for the greater good, sounds a bit entitled to me ... but hey, I'm just a grumpy git*.



*but don't be harsh, I do it for the greater good in an attempt to save cycling from itself.

When Lael applies for a place in the BB200, we will await your Judgement Stu!

firedfromthecircus wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:38 pm

redefined_cycles wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:07 pm

She (he) is also genuinely nails! She (he) can do whatever the hell she (he) wants to IMHO.

Said the international cycling community of Froome, when he decided to go and do a bit of sports-washing with Israel (apparently according to my local MP, a very complex situation is that there apartheid goings on and certainly the Royals agree [with 'can do whatever the heck they want'* strategie/policies].

*see 'Queens Speech Divestment and Sanctions' etc

NB: Just saying

There's drawing parallels and then there's what you've done here!

Just saying

Sorry. I wasn't have a dig at you at all (should have made that clear in the bottom of my post). Apologies if it came across that way

That's why (I learnt from Stu many moons ago) I removed you from the paraphrasing as it wasn't aimed at you and I do totally get what you mean that she does alot for the sport to encourage others etc etc

redefined_cycles wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:10 pm Sorry. I wasn't have a dig at you at all (should have made that clear in the bottom of my post). Apologies if it came across that way

No worries. It didn't come across that way to me anyway.

Thanks @firedfromthecircus... Why'd you get fired? Going against the grain too much

Ah well, we mostly seem to be coming round to the idea that rules are only for the little people. If you're famous enough then they can be disregarded.

Vote of No Confidence anyone?

I will raise a glass to that suggestion Scots

I'm not one for rules generally

Me neither but if you want to compete and have a record you have to have some sort of rules or I am doing it with a load of ebikes and claiming the record.
How about a pro and am record?
Guess it would be a blurry line for some folk who have real world jobs but sponsorship and we would argue over what pro means rather than what support means

rules are for the little people

Yes Colin. I've found that to be very true. Or even for those people that aren't as popular with folk. Sad but true and no offence to Lael (and her entourage) but am pretty certain you can still somehow satisfy sponsors as well as break records (within the rules).

From reading of how Schilling reacted he seemed to be very fair, reasonable and nice about it all. Wish I was a bit faster so I could break some bloomin rules too

Stu... In around 7 years of reading your stuff, today's the first time ever I found a spelling mistake (or is except an 'americanism'). Hope you're ok

I think that there are so many other opportunities and challenges for endurance/adventure cyclists to get involved with, I'm actually surprised riders (and even more, sponsors) go for this sort of thing anyway. I find following fast endurance racing pretty dull. There's never really that much of a story (there are notable exceptions obviously, Fiona Kolbinger 2019 Transcon for example). I'm not saying the achievements aren't notable, I just don't personally find it particularly interesting. The interesting thing is that LW does have a big audience and I'm sure does bring lots of people (especially women and girls) on board and that's despite appearing on occasion to be operating well outside what most of her followers could ever hope to achieve. I guess that's what inspiration is though. Is it?

I think that there are so many other opportunities and challenges for endurance/adventure cyclists to get involved with, I'm actually surprised riders (and even more, sponsors) go for this sort of thing anyway. I find following fast endurance racing pretty dull. There's never really that much of a story (there are notable exceptions obviously, Fiona Kolbinger 2019 Transcon for example). I'm not saying the achievements aren't notable, I just don't personally find it particularly interesting. The interesting thing is that LW does have a big audience and I'm sure does bring lots of people (especially women and girls) on board and that's despite appearing on occasion to be operating well outside what most of her followers could ever hope to achieve. I guess that's what inspiration is though. Is it?

Yes, I've never really considered bikepacking to be much of a spectator sport - I will make an exception when people I know personally are riding but otherwise, I've generally got better ways of wasting time I think I find inspiration from those instances of someone overcoming the odds, so the stories that come from mid-pack and below are often much more entertaining and inspirational .... but the Lantern Rouge probably doesn't have many sponsors

Even though the film is desperately sh1te I've had loads of emails from people who are considering the Divide after watching my film. I feel the polished super hero films can be almost counter inspirational as they seemingly put such races/rides out of reach in their narrative of overcoming huge odds to win. The reels I want to see are Jenny Graham at Fisherfield, Trep rolling in with he sleep monsters, Javi nursing his smashed hub home, Nik (You won't know him) riding 50 miles back to a garage to beg for help getting a new rear wheel etc... Steven/Stu are right this is where the stories are and these are the films I feel would truly inspire others to have a go.

Lazarus wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:30 pm

I'm not one for rules generally

Me neither but if you want to compete and have a record you have to have some sort of rules or I am doing it with a load of ebikes and claiming the record.
How about a pro and am record?
Guess it would be a blurry line for some folk who have real world jobs but sponsorship and we would argue over what pro means rather than what support means

Yes I agree, rules are needed if records are to be validated. I did say that rules do apply if you want to claim a record on a race route. And that there's a grey area - on trails like the AZT or Great Divide which existed before a race was run on them, you might be able to claim an FKT that doesn't meet race rules but that's not the same as 'course record' within the race records, rules, format etc.
eg, 'FKT' needs defining or to be in context and rules need to be understood if your effort is measured against others.

RE

a spectator sport

Dot watching is the fairly dull 2D overview but as Dave says it's the detail in individual stories that can be interesting or inspiring. Call-ins, blogs, rider reports etc all more interesting to me than dots. Dots can turn it into 'who's in the lead' but the experiences and stories go all the way through the pack.

Edit,

Dot watching was what I meant when I said spectator sport.

Sorry / yes assumed that. I sometimes use comments as a lead into my general comment but sometimes it reads as a counterpoint to the quoted bit, but not intended that way. As you were -

Dot watching is the fairly dull 2D overview but as Dave says it's the detail in individual stories that can be interesting or inspiring. Call-ins, blogs, rider reports etc all more interesting to me than dots. Dots can turn it into 'who's in the lead' but the experiences and stories go all the way through the pack.

Dot watching was what I meant when I said spectator sport.

Talking of inspiration .... I've just seen a video clip of a bloke in a gym. He'd suffered a stroke and lost the use of his right side. However, after a lot of training and struggle, he eventually manged to regain some use and can now climb a set of stairs unaided. That to me, is far more inspirational than a professional athlete breaking some record by .2 seconds or half a kilo. Suppose I just don't get much out of watching winners win.

I only dotwatch the HT550 and that's because I know the trails so can put the rider in the landscape and picture what they're riding through. Plus, of course, there are usually a few riders I know or know of.

I know it's probably / possibly / maybe a convenient "shorthand" but I've never considered *this* [waves hands around vaguely to signify bikepacking] to be a "sport". An activity that contains plenty of exercise sure, but I don't particularly do it for that (or maybe it's a happy coincidence that it contributes to health and fitness) but for the "experience". Not all experiences are epic, interesting or possibly even noteworthy but they're valuable to me.

Sorry, bit of hippy-sub standard-thinking ;-)

Cheeky Monkey wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:07 am I know it's probably / possibly / maybe a convenient "shorthand" but I've never considered *this* [waves hands around vaguely to signify bikepacking] to be a "sport". An activity that contains plenty of exercise sure, but I don't particularly do it for that (or maybe it's a happy coincidence that it contributes to health and fitness) but for the "experience". Not all experiences are epic, interesting or possibly even noteworthy but they're valuable to me.

Sorry, bit of hippy-sub standard-thinking ;-)

My general rule is that it's a Sport as soon as you introduce a competitive element.

ScotRoutes wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:21 am
My general rule is that it's a Sport as soon as you introduce a competitive element.

Agreed. People will find a way to turn anything into a p1ssing contest. I'm more of an SKT rider myself. The idea of spending two months on the Great Divide sounds far more enjoyable than two weeks.