Cheers for all the advice folks.

With regards to the stove, I have a little Vango ultralite jobbie that packs down small (2 packets of cigarettes size) and weighs very little, granted the gas bottle is pretty bulky. The meths stoves on the BearBones shop do look very impressive for size and weight, but aren't they a bit faffy to use? Looks like plonking a pan on could be a balancing act? This is all speculation, I've never used one.

I think it's probably fair to say that some folk will always consider meths to be a faff when compared to gas ... and sometimes they'd be right

However, it's not anywhere near as much faff as is sometimes imagined. I like the simplicity, nothing to break, nothing to go wrong and no wondering whether I've enough gas in that half used canister ... in fact, I don't think there is so I'd best take a spare or maybe a new canister would be better?

s8tannorm wrote:I think it's probably fair to say that some folk will always consider meths to be a faff when compared to gas ... and sometimes they'd be right

However, it's not anywhere near as much faff as is sometimes imagined. I like the simplicity, nothing to break, nothing to go wrong and no wondering whether I've enough gas in that half used canister ... in fact, I don't think there is so I'd best take a spare or maybe a new canister would be better?

Good point, I was stood in the kitchen last night shaking the can and "listening" as though that would reveal the exact contents to me.

I think for a short trips where I can spare the space I'll stick to the easily on-off-able-ness of gas, but when I'm tight for space the Bear Bones meths burners look like a god send!

I like meths too. It is slow, but I'm usually not in a rush. While it's simple, one of the things I really like about it is it's quiet. So being slow and quiet usually means it's a good rest/break while you wait for your brew

Having never used a meths burner, could I just ask, how long would you expect a small stove, like the Bear Bones jobbies to take to boil say 500ml of water?

Can't speak for the bear bones one, but mine will do it in about 6 mins (ballpark, it does 800ml in 8 mins). It's not as quick as my jetboil... but I'm not going to lose sleep over waiting another few mins.

I'm sure Stuart will give you a proper time

For me, it's about the time it takes to get my coffee sachet out and open, find my spoon, have a minor bit of faff, look around at the view, enjoy my surroundings, and maybe a bit more faff!

Great, thanks folks! As I said, for the relaxed one nighters I'll stick with the convenience of the gas can, but when space is an issues and I'm going "light" I'll definitely grab one of the meths stoves.

As with anything new learn to use it before you have to rely on it

whitestone wrote:As with anything new learn to use it before you have to rely on it

Cheers, I do need to remind myself of this from time to time!

On the subject of meths, anyone know where I can get a little squeezy fuel bottle? I bought one of the Trangia ones, but 300ml is massive overkill for my needs on this trip (I reckon I need 150ml, if that).

On the subject of meths, anyone know where I can get a little squeezy fuel bottle? I bought one of the Trangia ones, but 300ml is massive overkill for my needs on this trip (I reckon I need 150ml, if that).

I shall have a range of sizes and shapes on hand, Sat morning

Excellent. I'll bring the big bottle and swap it over.

Went for a test ride last night. Only 20 miles after work, but it was useful. I think I've over estimated just how much weight I can carry. It was very heavy going on the hills, especially out of the saddle, when I got my wiggle on I could feel the weight in the panniers really swinging the bike from side to side. Obviously as I do more and more training rides my fitness will counter act some of the weight but I definitely think my list needs some fat chopping out.

ootini wrote:Went for a test ride last night. Only 20 miles after work, but it was useful. I think I've over estimated just how much weight I can carry. It was very heavy going on the hills, especially out of the saddle, when I got my wiggle on I could feel the weight in the panniers really swinging the bike from side to side. Obviously as I do more and more training rides my fitness will counter act some of the weight but I definitely think my list needs some fat chopping out.

It may take a bit of time initially and be a bit geeky - but actually weighing every item of kit and listing it (in say a spreadsheet) will help you see where the weight is, and help you target the most efficient way to reduce the weight whilst still keeping what you need.

Zippy wrote:

ootini wrote:Went for a test ride last night. Only 20 miles after work, but it was useful. I think I've over estimated just how much weight I can carry. It was very heavy going on the hills, especially out of the saddle, when I got my wiggle on I could feel the weight in the panniers really swinging the bike from side to side. Obviously as I do more and more training rides my fitness will counter act some of the weight but I definitely think my list needs some fat chopping out.

It may take a bit of time initially and be a bit geeky - but actually weighing every item of kit and listing it (in say a spreadsheet) will help you see where the weight is, and help you target the most efficient way to reduce the weight whilst still keeping what you need.

I've started doing something similar, although as you can see it's in it's early stages : https://bikepackingonabudget.wordpress.com/cost/

I think the main "culprits" are:
The rear rack, but there's nothing I can do about that without spending loads of money on a lightweight seatpack.
The Sleeping bag, again, the solution is a more expensive down bag.


Also I've noticed my average speed plummet. I know you guys tend to ride MTB etc, so speeds would be different anyway, but on the bike unladen I tend to average around 14-15 MPH, where as last night I averaged 10-11 MPH.

At a less technical level, make a note of the things you didn't use and don't take them next time (within reason, of course e.g. don't leave the waterproof at home just because it didn't rain on your last trip... ). The greatest weight saving comes from the the stuff you don't take

Also look for stuff that can have more than one use, or clothing that can double up to do different things.

I appreciate you're on a budget, but the old adage of "lightweight, cheap, strong - pick only two" applies. e.g your rack and panniers weigh 2.5kg and cost £30 - that's a great return on £/litres capacity, but you've already noticed the effects of the weight. You can save weight in lots of places, but options are limited if the budget isn't there. Doesn't stop you having fun in the meantime though, so keep on experimenting - we all started at the beginning once (even me )

Ian wrote:At a less technical level, make a note of the things you didn't use and don't take them next time (within reason, of course e.g. don't leave the waterproof at home just because it didn't rain on your last trip... ). The greatest weight saving comes from the the stuff you don't take

Also look for stuff that can have more than one use, or clothing that can double up to do different things.

I appreciate you're on a budget, but the old adage of "lightweight, cheap, strong - pick only two" applies. e.g your rack and panniers weigh 2.5kg and cost £30 - that's a great return on £/litres capacity, but you've already noticed the effects of the weight. You can save weight in lots of places, but options are limited if the budget isn't there. Doesn't stop you having fun in the meantime though, so keep on experimenting - we all started at the beginning once (even me )

I think the kit list itself, is ok in the sense that I've got the correct items, it's just a case that my items are cheap, and as such not in the "ultra light" bracket. As you mentioned, the rack and bags aren't exactly light. But for £30, that's £1/litre of storage space. If I went for one of the posh seat bags like the AlpKit Koala, Wildcat Tiger, Apidura etc the overall cost per litre sky rockets.
For example the Wildcat Tiger goes up to 8 litres but costs £75 which means I'm paying £9.37/litre BUT the whole thing weighs in at only 0.19Kg which is a hell of a weight saving. But then common sense kicks in and I realise that in order to pack the same amount of kit in a seat pack like the Tiger as I can in my panniers I'd need 3.75 Tigers stuck to my bike, OK that's facetious but I mean not only is the Tiger more expensive, it's also smaller and wouldn't cover my needs completely which means more bags and more cost etc. At the end of the day, it's becoming apparent that weight is a very, very expensive commodity.

Having had a rethink, I'm thinking my biggest issue is the sleeping bag. The weight is one thing, but so is the pack size as I think it definitely had an affect on the aerodynamics of the bike.

I've just done some quick calcs, based on Cost, Weight, Max storage capacity.


My rack and bags = £30, 2,500g, 30l
Therefore cost per litre, and weight per litre=
£/litre = £1/litre
g/litre = 312g/litre
Which is obviously, cheap, but heavy.

The Wildcat Gear Tiger = £75, 190g, 8l
Therefore cost per litre, and weight per litre=
£/litre = £9.37/litre
g/litre = 24g/litre

The Apidura regular seat pack = £85, 400g, 17.5l
Therefore cost per litre, and weight per litre=
£/litre = £4.86/litre
g/litre = 22.8g/litre

The AlpKit Koala = £65, 230g, 13l
Therefore cost per litre, and weight per litre=
£/litre = £5/litre
g/litre = 17.7g/litre

So based purely on the figures above it looks like the Koala is the most weight effective seat pack, but my rack and panniers are the most cost effective method, but obviously there's more to life than just cost and weight such as build quality, availability etc.
Interesting though.

You have too much space !!
The more space you have the more kit you will take. I find I fill whatever space I have and end up taking too much .
Alpkit do a cheap seatpack thing (£15)https://www.alpkit.com/products/airlok-xtra-tapered not in stock at moment but they did do a DIY one made out of a drybag https://www.alpkit.com/deeds/diy-saddlebag so you could make it a bit bigger if needed.

Slacker wrote:You have too much space !!
The more space you have the more kit you will take. I find I fill whatever space I have and end up taking too much .
Alpkit do a cheap seatpack thing (£15)https://www.alpkit.com/products/airlok-xtra-tapered not in stock at moment but they did do a DIY one made out of a drybag https://www.alpkit.com/deeds/diy-saddlebag so you could make it a bit bigger if needed.

Hi thanks for the info, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the airlok xtra tapered, not just a dry bag to go inside the Koala? Or is it a seatpack in it's own right?

As for having too much space, I would agree if it weren't for the fact my cheap sleeping bag is huge and nearly fills a pannier on it's own. I could strap it on top of the rack, and leave one pannier off but that doesn't really change too much.

If you take a look at the first post I've listed my current kit, is there anything in that list you think I should lose?

Interesting analysis.

In your case, I wouldn't suggest a Tiger would suit your requirements to carry your current kit. IN a sense, it's at the opposite end of the spectrum to your current arrangement. The capacity is kept down to 8 litres for a reason, which is to restrict the weight at this point to prevent the tail wagging the dog. Larger bags appear "better" in terms of cost/litre or g/litre, but increase the likelihood of movement because their attachment points are close together (saddle rails and seat post) relative to the direction the load is going (rearwards/ skywards), and proximity to the ground contact points and steering at the opposite end of the bike.

Carrying large volumes (and weights) is quite possible provided the distribution is sensible over the whole bike. Propelling said weight up hill and down dale then becomes simply an issue of fitness

Ian wrote:Interesting analysis.

In your case, I wouldn't suggest a Tiger would suit your requirements to carry your current kit. IN a sense, it's at the opposite end of the spectrum to your current arrangement. The capacity is kept down to 8 litres for a reason, which is to restrict the weight at this point to prevent the tail wagging the dog. Larger bags appear "better" in terms of cost/litre or g/litre, but increase the likelihood of movement because their attachment points are close together (saddle rails and seat post) relative to the direction the load is going (rearwards/ skywards), and proximity to the ground contact points and steering at the opposite end of the bike.

Carrying large volumes (and weights) is quite possible provided the distribution is sensible over the whole bike. Propelling said weight up hill and down dale then becomes simply an issue of fitness

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to grab a seat pack and the Tiger would definitely be high up on the list, however I think if I were purchasing any upgrades the sleeping bag would be the first thing that needs sorting. My current sleeping bag would fill a Tiger on it's own.
Unfortunately, due to the gearing and handlebar layout on my bike it looks like fitting handlebar harness could be a royal pain in the a**! At the moment it boils down to the fact that given my current kit list (ignoring bags) I need about 20 litres of storage at least. Which would mean:
A Tiger = 8 litres @ £75
A large Ocelot = 3.6 litres *XL won't fit my frame @£70
A Mountain Lion harness + 9 litre dry bag (even though this almost certainly won't fit without modding the gears) = 9 litres. @£65 + £10 for dryabg.

So this means I've spent £220 to achieve the same storage levels that I already have for £30. Which don't get me wrong, would be lovely, especially if I could get the handlebar harness to fit as it would balance the bike out much better, but it's not going to happen any time soon.

It can be either. Not the most robust but a good budget starter.

Not a huge difference !!!