I was a little surprised that it does not come with brazeon's to bolt a frame bag on.

Not a feature I'd want.

Richpips wrote:

I was a little surprised that it does not come with brazeon's to bolt a frame bag on.

Not a feature I'd want.

Would you like to elaborate a bit?

I wouldn't want bag braze ons either, I don't think it's the best way to attach bags, and limits your choice of bags/makers.

mountainbaker wrote:I wouldn't want bag braze ons either, I don't think it's the best way to attach bags, and limits your choice of bags/makers.

Not to mention more holes drilled in the frame, a frame bag I can't transfer to another bike, sell on if I change my mind, etc.

Would you like to elaborate a bit?

I want bags that I can quickly remove from my bike. Not ones I have to unbolt. Tired, I left a bag on my bike overnight on the HTR, and a rat ate through it.

Furthermore if you are fastening a bag to the frame by bolts, it'll need some sort of rigid reinforcement to the inside of the bag, which will weigh extra.

As for brazed on loops (which has been mentioned before) to hang bags from, I reckon they'd wear quite quickly. Plus there would be a weight penalty.

Richpips wrote:

Would you like to elaborate a bit?

I want bags that I can quickly remove from my bike. Not ones I have to unbolt. Tired, I left a bag on my bike overnight on the HTR, and a rat ate through it.

Yuck! I have been expecting to leave the frame bag on my bike to save time and because with a bivy there isn't really anywhere to put it. Actually I can fit all my bike packing bags in the head of the bivy, I just hadn't thought this would be much of a gain. Presumably while a rat could just as easily chew through my bivy bag the idea is that my presence would put them off - although now I'm wondering whether the frame bag should be even further away from me!

Furthermore if you are fastening a bag to the frame by bolts, it'll need some sort of rigid reinforcement to the inside of the bag, which will weigh extra.

As for brazed on loops (which has been mentioned before) to hang bags from, I reckon they'd wear quite quickly. Plus there would be a weight penalty.

I'm not sure what the prototype "bolt on" frame bag from Wildcat did. I just thought it sounded neat, tidy and secure.

I'm realistic that if I was serious about saving weight there are 20kg around my waist that it would be more sensible to focus on ;-)

Yuck! I have been expecting to leave the frame bag on my bike to save time and because with a bivy there isn't really anywhere to put it. Actually I can fit all my bike packing bags in the head of the bivy, I just hadn't thought this would be much of a gain. Presumably while a rat could just as easily chew through my bivy bag the idea is that my presence would put them off - although now I'm wondering whether the frame bag should be even further away from me!

When I stop for the night, I usually take all the bags off my bike as then I have everything to hand for the evening. It also means I can pack everything up in the morning, whilst still in my shelter.

I'm not sure what the prototype "bolt on" frame bag from Wildcat did. I just thought it sounded neat, tidy and secure.

I've not seen that, so can't comment. I've no doubt it'd be secure though.

Richpips wrote:

I was a little surprised that it does not come with brazeon's to bolt a frame bag on.

Not a feature I'd want.

Nor me, I like a nice clean looking frame and thats one reason I like the Shands

At risk of going off topic, I agree that it is more difficult to take bags off if they're bolted on, but in four years of using frame bags I've not had a serious issue with rodents such that I need to remove the bag regularly or in a hurry. I think the best thing would be not to leave food in it overnight.

However, if you went the bolted route, the braze-on themselves are only bottle cage mounts are are unobtrusive when not in use. Two on the underside of the top tube, plus existing bottle cage bosses on seat and down tube are fine to hold a bag in place (as they do on my fat bike, but the top tube ones are for cable routing anyway, so I'm bolting through cable guides). Plastic reinforcement is simply 2mm HDPE sheet and not that heavy. Not everyone's cup of tea, granted, but no straps does make a bag look quite neat.

Did your feedback from riding this year's ITTs help with the development of this frame Ian?

That's certainly not meant to read like a question of your impartiality on this topic - I was just interested to know if riders, like yourself, had input into the process at Shand.

s8tannorm wrote:I think when you consider that you're pretty much getting a handmade, UK built custom frame, a grand doesn't actually seem bad ... have you seen the price of 2015 Surly and Salsa frames?

I hadnt seen that, but theres a decent hike in the el mariachi this year. 599 vs 449 last year

I would happily pay £1k

SRS wrote:Did your feedback from riding this year's ITTs help with the development of this frame Ian?

That's certainly not meant to read like a question of your impartiality on this topic - I was just interested to know if riders, like yourself, had input into the process at Shand.

Steven and I did have a long chat about the elements I would want in a "bikepacking frame". Some of these are incorporated into the Bahookie, but only in part as it was important to present a more versatile package rather than something a bit more niche and suited to a slightly narrower market.

Ian wrote: about the elements I would want in a "bikepacking frame".

Slight hijack

Ian. What would the perfect bikepacking frame be like?

I'm guessing
Internal cable routing?
Single chain ring up front?
Straight tubed large triangle?

What else would make it perfect?

Large triangle - to a point, but not to the detriment of standover height.
Straight tubes - yes, but bent seat tube is OK from a frame bag perspective and to keep rear end short (see below)
Internal cable routing - for me, not essential given what we've been able to do with bolted mounts on the fatbike.
Single ring - for me yes, either 1x10 or SS. I don't ever envisage needing a front mech again.
Singlespeed compatible - Steven showed me the PF30 wheel and EBB equivalent system that you would fit in it. Looks good, and lighter than a traditional EBB by some margin.

Other stuff:

Clearance for 2.4" tyres on 35mm rims, because nowadays you can.
Slightly higher than "normal" front end for all day comfort - one aspect of the current frame I really love)
Short rear end to allow lifting loaded front end more easily - this is where an EBB (or PF30 with a thingymajig fitted inside it) has an advantage over sliding dropouts.
and so on - you get the idea

Internal cable routing? - Not for me. Too much faff if having to change cables.
Single chain ring up front? - Not for me. I want more gears.
Straight tubed large triangle? - Not essential and often not possible if accommodating fork adjusters.

I guess that just proves that there isn't one "perfect" design

ScotRoutes wrote:I guess that just proves that there isn't one "perfect" design

Indeed. Which is why custom frame builders exist to cater for individual preferences.

ScotRoutes wrote:Single chain ring up front? - Not for me. I want more gears.

With Rohloff's, 1 x 11's or 1 x 10's with a one up 40+ tooth cog extender and if needed the option to change the front ring pre ride, I'm with Ian for me the front derailleur is now dead.

Yeah, RIP Front Mechs.

Still a place for FDs. Above 2000m.

To change my 2x9 to 1x10 with a 42 tooth cog extender would cost in excess of £100. Doubt I'll be losing my front mech any time soon .