losing ownership would feel like losing a piece of myself.

I appreciate that might make no sense at all

Makes sense to me. It's why I think I might react too personally on these things at first. Pressure to react Vs time to think with the better reasoning part of the mind. The TNR as a thing was very much an expression of riding for me around 2012-2017 and my take on bikes, events, what riding meant etc. It still is. And someone offering a guided tour along that route makes no difference to that.
(bad use of logos, damage to rep by using sub standard alternate routes and blaming the TNR etc may cause damage to sponsorship value somehow but unlikely to go that far and that's another thread)

jameso wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2024 7:20 pm Too crypic sorry - can you expand on that? I have a deal with komoot, yes. If you mean how they store the info and the general terms, yes technically once up it's theirs to use.

sorry, my wrongdoing
Paragraph 12.3.

Private and commercial use:
The user agrees to use the platform and the services of komoot exclusively with the options described within the package overview and solutions. He assures to use komoot only legally, proper and in accordance with these terms and conditions and related terms and conditions, applicable policies or guidelines and contained purposes. Therefore the user may not use content and features in any other way except those described under package overview and Lösungen. For solutions, the user accepts explicitly additional terms and conditions, policies or guidelines.

I'm hoping there are non exclusive rights or no rights at all extending the above (full T & C, paragraph 10 and 12 especially) or whatsoever within the "package overview and solutions" and "additional conditions [...]" you have with them. As in Komoot hold any right to your route and any related material uploaded on their server, that prohibits you sharing the TNR in any form anywhere else than Komoot.

jameso wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2024 7:20 pm But I think the answer is that the branding is what you can protect, not the other stuff.

yeah, that's what I think too:

Alpinum wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2024 6:31 pm I can't see a copyright for the route. Make a brand and it's different.

jameso wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2024 7:20 pm I don't have anything if you sent it to the TNR email but no worries, and if you have it to hand it'd be of interest.

I'll look in my PN on here, since I thought we had an exchange there. Have to go back to make calendars tonight and then get ready for a long and busy weekend, but will check beginning of next week.

RE komoot terms, I went back and had a look. Obvs IANAL, starting this thread ; ) but 12.3 I read as saying no modification of komoot's tools and content, it's about them controlling how their own code is used. Para 13 covers their non-exclusive rights to the content to be used as they feel best for the app and users. However my agreement with komoot IS for them to have the routes exclusively during the sponsorship term. If that should end I could either leave them with the content and remove some or all of my copy, images and logos that go with it (T+Cs permit that) or someone else will upload a version of the route. What they see value in is the link and relationship outside of the app though, and doing things like Lael Wilcox's Women's TNR, now a Women's Rally Series. I supposed if the 'Rally' event /tag was looking to become more popular, komoot having a public partnership with the TNR meant they're more free to take influence w/o any social media backlash (as has happened -in a teacup- over other 'similar' events).
In hindsight, the pro-active co-operation with komoot is an example to myself of how I should have foreseen and tried to handle tour operators using elements of the TNR 'stuff' as well as the route GPX itself.

I'll look in my PN on here

- found your first mail but not the info anyone might have given you. Apologies if deleted in error, always interested if you have it. Thanks.

Alpinum wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2024 9:37 pm I'm hoping there are non exclusive rights

They are non-exclusive as per 13.1 where they also, AIUI, get permission to do what they want with it. Forever, as per 13.2. (Edit: I didn't see Jameso's follow up post re this, and am obviously not privy to any agreement beyond the public t&c)

jameso wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2024 7:20 pm They do donate directly to SSF as annual sponsor, it's a positive relationship, always has been. They add to the rider benefits for any riders who donate to SSF too. I only have good things to say about my dealings with komoot and their 'rally series' is cool to see happening, the 'rally' term seems to have taken off for non-timed social tours. (no, I don't feel I'm due any ownership rights there )

That's good to hear. I guess with all these corporations people have mixed feelings about what they do and how they operate, and it's for each of us to make a call as to whether we're happy with any deal we make by using them.

They are non-exclusive as per 13.1 where they also, AIUI, get permission to do what they want with it. Forever, as per 13.2

This is as I understood it, means that if you delete a route the other highligts or tours that are linked or built on it aren't affected in a way that downgrades user experience. komoot generates routes partly by building on content already there so I expect some elements of a route or data have to stay in place. If as Gian says they used the letter of the contract they can keep more than just the route data. I talked through this general area with them and I'm comfortable with the intent because the app needs user-generated content and you need a reputation for that to develop, it's not in their interest to go too far against a user's wishes as long as those wishes don't cause technical problems. There's an element of faith there oc. If there was a dispute then I realise they have expensive lawyers

That's good to hear.

Their logo and credit for the support is on every page of the TNR site, it's been a good thing from the start. I've met and spoken to a number of people who work there and it sounds like a good company to work for.

I'm the main route planner amongst my group of friends. It's something I enjoy doing, and seem to be pretty decent at. I create everything from single day road and gravel rides to multi-day bikepacking trips, all UK based. I can spend hours on Komoot creating routes. Usually I look at other routes in the area, reading comments and descriptions from Komoot, looking at Google Maps, looking at the likes of bikepacking.com, this website, other forums and websites to see what people say about the difficulty, things to be aware of, re-fueling options, accommodation options, etc, and go from there. Once I finish a route, I will continue to tweak it, usually trying to swap out steep climbs for longer, gentler gradients if I can, getting rid of any long sections on main roads, etc.
If someone outside of my group wants to use my routes- go for it. I don't have a problem with it. What I would have a problem with is if they tried to monetise it. Will my routes ever be used for that? Probably not. I don't have a huge social media presence or following, so the likelihood is low. But I would be pretty pissed if some social media influencer nicked my routes and passed them off as their own. Or if some "adventure touring" company started using them and charging people to go on guided bikepacking trips, and again passing them off as their own.

rivers wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:53 am What I would have a problem with is if they tried to monetise it. Will my routes ever be used for that? Probably not.

That's exactly what Komoot are doing with it!

Hyppy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 12:05 pm

rivers wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:53 am What I would have a problem with is if they tried to monetise it. Will my routes ever be used for that? Probably not.

That's exactly what Komoot are doing with it!

True, plus Strava, and RideWithGPS, and Garmin Connect, right? We share routes and we use their apps (often for free) and we can gain a benefit from sharing them on SM like this, that's a part of how the TNR ended up here with Qs over 'rights' as well as great potential upsides to try to navigate.

jameso wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 12:57 pm

Hyppy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 12:05 pm

rivers wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:53 am What I would have a problem with is if they tried to monetise it. Will my routes ever be used for that? Probably not.

That's exactly what Komoot are doing with it!

True, plus Strava, and RideWithGPS, and Garmin Connect, right? We share routes and we use their apps (often for free) and we can gain a benefit from sharing them on SM like this, that's a part of how the TNR ended up here with Qs over 'rights' as well as great potential upsides to try to navigate.

Totally. It does kinda make me laugh/angry that it went from 'if something's free then you're the product' to people actually paying to be the product, but that battle seems long since lost.

At the risk of wading into what has become a very nuanced discussion specific to the particularities of the TNR, komoot (heroes or villains?!) etc… I was wondering whether the appropriate ethos for sharing original routes might be something like Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike.

“allows re-distribution and re-use of a licensed work on the conditions that the creator is appropriately credited and that any derivative work is made available under “the same, similar or a compatible license”.

Given that you can’t exactly license a route, it’s more of an honour system. Though komoot’s walled garden (which compares very unfavourably to RwGPS in my opinion) may not be compatible with such an ethos. But that’s a komoot problem.

It's a good point Jack and apologies if what could be a more interesting general point has got sidetracked to my own area of route experience - wasn't the aim of the post.

I'd looked at CC licenses and considered CC BY-NC-SA, but as you say if a route has no copyright it's not relevant. But as a way to illustrate how you'd like to see something used it's a good example? It doesn't answer the commercial use w/o permission point but maybe an appeal to ethics is all you can do.

CC BY-NC-SA
This license enables reusers to distribute, remix, adapt, and build upon the material in any medium or format for noncommercial purposes only, and only so long as attribution is given to the creator. If you remix, adapt, or build upon the material, you must license the modified material under identical terms. CC BY-NC-SA includes the following elements:

BY: credit must be given to the creator.
NC: Only noncommercial uses of the work are permitted.
SA: Adaptations must be shared under the same terms.

The history of the Cambrian Way walking route may be illustrative and contain some parallels?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_Way

might it be good if one day James’s TN route is adopted or endorsed by the government agencies who have the capacity to maintain and safeguard the actual tracks used?. So it becomes a EurovVelo/GR type of thing? Or is government involvement just another can of worms? Is there a risk of over tourism? (already an issue on the NC500)

Back to CC licensing, i suspect a “non commercial” stipulation would work against the idea that the route could somehow contribute to sustainable tourism.

Back to CC licensing, i suspect a “non commercial” stipulation would work against the idea that the route could somehow contribute to sustainable tourism.

If I understand, CC and the CC BY-NC-SA could guide use of the route (which so far we think can't be protected and considering rights of way etc that's how it should be), then the use of a route name or logo could be handled outside that or with a different CC for commercial businesses. I think a distinction between types of commercial business would be good but perhaps that's not for me to judge, let the market decide etc.

The history of the Cambrian Way walking route

That's very interesting, thanks. The copyright to the guidebook in his will in particular. I'm hopefully from that stage RE the will .. but the guidebook is food for thought. As is handing it over to a Eurovelo type of body, if it was of any value to them.

Hyppy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 12:05 pm

rivers wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:53 am What I would have a problem with is if they tried to monetise it. Will my routes ever be used for that? Probably not.

That's exactly what Komoot are doing with it!

I don't have a problem with Komoot doing it because a) it's in the terms and conditions and I knew that when I signed up to the platform and b) it is the platform I use to create my routes. Plus it credits the creator of the route or collection.
But some random person or company passing a route off as their own is the issue.

Just devised my own TNR:
https://www.komoot.com/tour/1982520857? ... UOr1f5RDs4

Might run it in the summer. Start with a pizza, finish with a few pints in The Red Deer.

Torinos pizza place . To a pub .. that's NICE?
Sounds like my level of tour at the moment!

https://maps.app.goo.gl/KNEzfJ76ou8fSHCu5

This is the end point, the pub is an added bonus.

..

I think that deserves a pint ; )

Bearlegged wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 8:43 pm Just devised my own TNR:
https://www.komoot.com/tour/1982520857? ... UOr1f5RDs4

Might run it in the summer. Start with a pizza, finish with a few pints in The Red Deer.

This is epic

Bearlegged wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 8:43 pm Just devised my own TNR:
https://www.komoot.com/tour/1982520857? ... UOr1f5RDs4

Might run it in the summer. Start with a pizza, finish with a few pints in The Red Deer.

Brilliant

When I put together Tor Divide I had someone - who works for a well known Scottish manufacturer no less - repeatedly and arrogantly getting in touch asking for the route.
As I wouldn't share it and I instead invited them to the event, they called me delusional "to think the route would stay secret" and that they would nick it the day after the event.
I tried to explain them that the event is much more than the route, and I think that's what you might want to protect James.

TNR is more than an A to B route, it has a following, it has made a name for itself and others shouldn't use it as they please (especially for free).
There's no way to know whether this company of copycats will negatively affect TNR
The NC500 approach seems to be a really good model to follow.


Completely unrelated to that, the only negative feedback received from Tor Divide participants was from a organiser of cycling holidays....whether they were disappointed by the fact that the event route isn't suitable for leisurely holidays...or horrified someone like me had the audacity to improvise as event organiser...who knows.