Really?

[RIP]

I remember we had a thread a while ago ribbing some other event - ah no it wasn't, it was a chap doing designer bikepacking in the Peaks with Fortnum's hampers and tea-lights and things for time-poor Londoners. I thought it was all rather cute and nice actually, and it didn't claim that it was something it wasn't. Still gave it a good-natured ribbing though!

And Stu[s], if you really want to get a bit wound up go and look at the Dark Skies subsection of that website and its associated kitlist that gets 'thoroughly' checked over before you're 'allowed' to set off. Not much of an adventure after that, and perhaps even less so when you notice that you get a gpx AND waymarking!

'Unusual, exciting, and possibly dangerous' is a dictionary definition of 'adventure'. Sounds a bit tame to me actually so maybe we're wrong about this event.

[ScotRoutes]

Words are important. It clearly says "ride" and not "event". That's either lazy and ignorant or deliberate hiperbolae. I'd like to think that folk entering this event would know the truth regardless.

[RIP]

Agreed 'Routes. If it said 'Adventure Cycling Event' there'd be a little more justification for the claim. It is indeed all words though, as mentioned above the dictionary definition of 'adventure' doesn't match mine so what do I know.

[Pyro]

'Unusual, exciting, and possibly dangerous' is a dictionary definition of 'adventure'. Sounds a bit tame to me actually so maybe we're wrong about this event.

Close, according to Dictionary.com, Reg.
"adventure (noun)
- an exciting or very unusual experience
- participation in exciting undertakings or enterprises"

But within that, everyone's definition of exciting or unusual is different - don't judge other people's adventures by the standards of your own.

It clearly says "ride" and not "event". That's either lazy and ignorant or deliberate hyperbole.

Possibly the latter, but that's marketing for you.

I'd say again, people are welcome to go and ride it and judge for themselves.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Words are important. It clearly says "ride" and not "event". That's either lazy and ignorant or deliberate hiperbolae. I'd like to think that folk entering this event would know the truth regardless.

'Ride' seems like a strange term to use. Quite obviously it's not a race (I assume there's no timing and no records of how long it took anyone will be published) because it uses bridleways ... but 'ride'? It seems to belittle it somehow, I'm sure 'event' would sound more appealing.

With regard to ITT ... If it's run on fully legal RoW then who's permission are you meant to ask? It's not like you phone someone up to forewarn them that you're nipping out for a drive in your car is it? Don't anyone think for a minute that ITT is an easy gig, it's a lot if hard work ... especially when those putting the graft in are generally doing it for f*ck all.

[RIP]

By the way, does anyone know the antidote to acronym-overload please? EWE. LEL. Hmm.

Yours, AOF (*)

(*) An Old Fart

[redefined_cycles]

By the way, does anyone know the antidote to acronym-overload please? EWE. LEL. Hmm.

Yours, AOF (*)

(*) An Old Fart

London Edinburgh london

Ewe: i dont know Reg (but I do know that the new stem cell bag I boight off Stu should weigh 52 to 56g )

[Pyro]

With regard to ITT ... If it's run on fully legal RoW then who's permission are you meant to ask? It's not like you phone someone up to forewarn them that you're nipping out for a drive in your car is it? Don't anyone think for a minute that ITT is an easy gig, it's a lot if hard work ... especially when those putting the graft in are generally doing it for f*ck all.

The various County Highways links I've seen over the years all state something along the lines of "If you wish to hold a cycling event on a restricted byway or a byway open to all traffic, you must ask for permission from the police." (quote direct from Hampshire CC's website for reference) If it passes through Forestry Commission land, you need their permissions, etc

Stu, I don't think it's an easy gig at all: fully appreciate it's a hard, generally thankless task. As I said, and you and I have discussed before some time ago, I'm just not of the opinion that mass-start ITTs are a good thing. Other people's mileage evidently varies considerably.

Oh, and EWE = East-West-East

[Bearbonesnorm]

"If you wish to hold a cycling event on a restricted byway or a byway open to all traffic, you must ask for permission from the police."

I assume that's because they're still classed as 'roads' ... but a bridleway may or may not fall into that category.

If it passes through Forestry Commission land, you need their permissions, etc

And what a task that is

EWE is England - Wales- England a rather long route devised by Aidan Harding and partly crowd sourced.

[ScotRoutes]

"If you wish to hold a cycling event on a restricted byway or a byway open to all traffic, you must ask for permission from the police."

If it passes through Forestry Commission land, you need their permissions, etc

Can I just say "Scotland"?

[Pyro]

"If you wish to hold a cycling event on a restricted byway or a byway open to all traffic, you must ask for permission from the police."

I assume that's because they're still classed as 'roads' ... but a bridleway may or may not fall into that category.

Practical Law defines a Restricted By way as "A way over which there is a right to pass on foot, on horse-back, leading a horse and for vehicles other than mechanically-propelled vehicles. In some cases there may also be a right to drive animals." That, to me, includes bridleways. Certainly as of the 2006 amendments to CROW, all clauses relating to bridleway now read 'bridleway or restricted byway'

If it passes through Forestry Commission land, you need their permissions, etc

And what a task that is

Yup, well aware of how much of a PITA they are. I used to work with them...

Can I just say "Scotland"?

You can, I'd be interested to see how Scots Right to Roam translates to organised events - since that's essentially the same case as in England and Wales. It's not to do with the right of the participant to access the land/trail, it's to do with the right of the organisers to organise a event (profit-making or otherwise) using those trails

[ScotRoutes]

FWIW, extracted from the Scottish Outdoor Access Code

You need to obtain the permission of the
relevant land manager(s) if your event:
 needs new or temporary facilities and services (such as car parking,
fencing, signs, litter bins, marked courses or toilets); or
 due to its nature or to the number of participants or spectators, is likely,
to an unreasonable extent, to hinder land management operations,
interfere with other people enjoying the outdoors or affect the
environment.

[Pyro]

FWIW, extracted from the Scottish Outdoor Access Code

You need to obtain the permission of the
relevant land manager(s) if your event:
 needs new or temporary facilities and services (such as car parking,
fencing, signs, litter bins, marked courses or toilets); or
 due to its nature or to the number of participants or spectators, is likely,
to an unreasonable extent, to hinder land management operations,
interfere with other people enjoying the outdoors or affect the
environment.

Thanks for that. Very subjective, those latter clauses.

[ScotRoutes]

The whole LRA is founded on "reasonableness" so it's not surprising to see it in this guidance. Likely it would take someone to complain about unreasonable interference or damage post-event before any action could be taken against an event organiser,or the scale of it would have to be "obviously" too great beforehand, and would still need someone to object.

It's an interesting discussion as regards what might happen in Wales, though perhaps the whole existing Bridleway legislation would need to become subordinate.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I'm just not of the opinion that mass-start ITTs are a good thing.

We have had this conversation ... but what's the difference between the above and another group of people doing exactly the same thing aside from the fact they've paid to take part. I can't see any difference with regard to local residents, erosion of trails, etc, etc.

I also can't see that it's a problem of liability as nearly every paid for event will feature a (largely worthless) disclaimer like this:

I accept the following terms for my entry. I also accept the terms on behalf of any participants that I enter in this event, all of whom have been provided with a copy of the terms and have accepted them. I declare the information entered is complete and correct. I understand and agree that I participate in this event at my own risk, and that I must rely on my own ability in dealing with hazards and that I must ride in a manner which is safe for myself and others. I am aware that when riding in an event and when on a public highway the function of the marshals is to indicate direction only and I am responsible for deciding if movement is safe. I agree that no liability whatsoever shall be attached to the promoter, promoting club or event sponsors in respect of any injury, loss or damage suffered by me on, or by reason of the event, howsoever caused.

There may well be a third party element to the above but I notice that some events are now requesting that riders obtain their own third party cover - those who are members of BC or CTC (as was) will likely already be covered.

Does it simply boil down to one person asked the police and the other didn't?

[Pyro]

Does it simply boil down to one person asked the police and the other didn't?

I'll have to answer that later on, I'm just going for a ride! :)

[redefined_cycles]

'Unusual, exciting, and possibly dangerous' is a dictionary definition of 'adventure'. Sounds a bit tame to me actually so maybe we're wrong about this event.

Close, according to Dictionary.com, Reg.
"adventure (noun)
- an exciting or very unusual experience
- participation in exciting undertakings or enterprises"

But within that, everyone's definition of exciting or unusual is different - don't judge other people's adventures by the standards of your own.

It clearly says "ride" and not "event". That's either lazy and ignorant or deliberate hyperbole.

Possibly the latter, but that's marketing for you.

I'd say again, people are welcome to go and ride it and judge for themselves.

Pyro... I'd like to take up that offer and judge for my own self. Hence just one Q please. I've downloaded the DarkSkys gpx but just want to confirm which are the private/closed land section for which its stated on the site as restricted on other days. I'll just have to leave that/them bits out...

NB. Unfortunately the toughest off road ride I've done is just the Mary Townley thus far so dont have much to judge for my(personal) self. Will be using an mtb aswell so the bridletracks might not feel as jittery.

Let me know please.. ta

[voodoo_simon]

By the way, does anyone know the antidote to acronym-overload please? EWE. LEL. Hmm.

Yours, AOF (*)

(*) An Old Fart

EWE is England Wales England

If my memory serves me correctly, it’s a 1000 mile route that only has had one finisher. Was setup for a group start but not sure how many started (or indeed if they finished).

http://www.aidanharding.com/ewe/

Due to only having one finisher (IIRC*), I always quote to”his, rightly or wrongly as one of the toughest UK races**

*if I remember correctly
**no doubting this will open a can of worms

[Pyro]

Pyro... I'd like to take up that offer and judge for my own self. Hence just one Q please. I've downloaded the DarkSkys gpx but just want to confirm which are the private/closed land section for which its stated on the site as restricted on other days. I'll just have to leave that/them bits out...

Hiya Redefined. I can't tell you which bits are the Private sections - as in, I don't know myself. I've helped marshal at both True Grit and Dark Skies but I'm not one of the route planners. I know there's more private tracks on the longest True Grit loop - a whole section of which is purely private land - but I'm not sure with Dark Skies so can't really say. I'd run it into something like Viewranger and look at track designations according to OS.

I'm still self-editing on the "why I don't like mass-start ITT's" topic, and having a good think about it myself to be honest. Bear with me... (pun totally intended.)

[ScotRoutes]

I'm still self-editing on the "why I don't like mass-start ITT's" topic, and having a good think about it myself to be honest

That'll be genuinely interesting

[jameso]

I'm still self-editing on the "why I don't like mass-start ITT's" topic, and having a good think about it myself to be honest

That'll be genuinely interesting

Agreed, worth a new topic maybe.

[redefined_cycles]

Pyro... I'd like to take up that offer and judge for my own self. Hence just one Q please. I've downloaded the DarkSkys gpx but just want to confirm which are the private/closed land section for which its stated on the site as restricted on other days. I'll just have to leave that/them bits out...

Hiya Redefined. I can't tell you which bits are the Private sections - as in, I don't know myself. I've helped marshal at both True Grit and Dark Skies but I'm not one of the route planners. I know there's more private tracks on the longest True Grit loop - a whole section of which is purely private land - but I'm not sure with Dark Skies so can't really say. I'd run it into something like Viewranger and look at track designations according to OS.

I'm still self-editing on the "why I don't like mass-start ITT's" topic, and having a good think about it myself to be honest. Bear with me... (pun totally intended.)

Thanks Pyro... I shall give it a ride next month at some point and report back about the blurb (from my point of view: I am a bit soft so might just be for me:), "UKs toughest adventure ride"... Granted that removal of the private tracks (on which I will assume I'd get shot by a happy farmer) might make it less so 'adventurous'... So will try and keep unadulterated as much as poss.

Dark Skys I assume is the toughest version as indicated on the poster right??

[Bearbonesnorm]

Me, I'm still waiting to discover what the difference is between a paid for event that sends riders out across the countryside on a legal pre-determined route and an ITT that sends riders out across the countryside on a legal pre-determined route

[Pyro]

Dark Skys I assume is the toughest version as indicated on the poster right??

No, the full True Grit loop, The Outlaw. Dark Skies is probably a slightly easier loop, just made more complicated for some by being at night

[redefined_cycles]

For soke reason when i click thw TrueGrit gpx it only dwnnloads the DarkSkys for me... are they just one and the same/similar but one being a night ride??