htrider wrote:You definitely pay for the mans design input, whether you consider that's a rip off or worth it is subjective. As a jones owner I'm not really in a position to be objective....

I guess my beef with these is that they are largely a copy. I'd like to try loops with a 35 degree sweep and I'm sure others are put off by the full 45 degrees of the Jones bar. So why couldn't on one come up with some different sweeps, rises etc and produce an addition to whats available rather than just ripping it off.

Hey ho that's capitalism

Despite my comments I don't really disagree with you. Guess this is the same conflictedness Stu speaks of.

I've two sets of Jones Loop bars: one carbon bought second hand (off here from memory); the other is a set of SG Riser bars bought new. The carbon bars are much better (due to their slight flex) than the SG versions but I doubt I'd pay the full whack for them - famous last words!

As Phil says, why not try 35deg, or some other angle than 45deg? Simply to go with 45deg smacks of rip off.

Pricewise: Jeff will have had to had his bars tested to meet whatever US and EU standards, don't know how much that costs or whether it's an ongoing test/certification. That's got to be amortised across his sales. Of course here in the UK/EU we get stung for various duties so what's within reason Stateside becomes a sharp intake of breath here. Market forces dictate that you charge what you can get away with.

I tend not to buy copies/rip offs but some that we did end up with were "copies" of Moon LED lights, from Aldi if memory serves, and the experience wasn't great. Whilst they looked similar, to the point where even in the hand they were hard to tell apart from the genuine article in use they were anything but. The switch just wasn't built to the same standard and after only a little use it was a struggle to turn the light on or off.

There are quite a lot of other 45 degree bars out there, what they have done is picked one out of a catalogue about the same width with a loop out front albeit a bit of a squarer loop than a jones. If jones were small scale hand made in the USA then ok I'd pay the price if I wanted some* but they ain't they are bobbed out a Taiwan factory and basically it's just 2 tubes welded together!

What I really want is a pair of Groovy Cycles Luv handles, why can't On One rip them off?

In the post Brexit dystopian future it might just be every man for himself (I work for an investment bank :( )

* I paid £150 for a Gevenalle shifter bolted to a cheap TRP lever

What I really want is a pair of Groovy Cycles Luv handles,

I might have summat similar Shawn ... oh the irony.

You mean you have some or you want some?

About 20 deg and 25mm rise would be just nice

Luv handles make Geoff Jones look reasonable

I have a pair of Bat Wings that I got from the US that I'd part with.

how wide?

interested and a little sunday night tipsy

I assume the shiney ones are actually yours

how wide?

I'll have to measure them.

I assume the shiney ones are actually yours

No - the top ones are Bat wings, the bottom ones are Luv handles ... see, quite similar.

Yes please, If you could measure width, rise, sweep(ish) and take a pic and send me a PM, cheers

Bearbonesnorm wrote:

I seem to recall that Jeff Jones ended up contacting Alpkit and saying - "Don't sell these or else my lawyers will be in touch" whereupon Alpkit withdrew them (and then sold the container load they had received on the QT)

Maybe on -one are a bit more thick skinned.....

Is the issue not with the manufacturers rather than the re-sellers? As James says, only a matter of time before someone picked them up. Are these the same bars as fitted as OE to the new Ribble Adventure?

{simply saying what others are thinking} ... if On-One can punt these out for less than £25 and make a profit, does it not make the price of the genuine article seem somewhat mental? I don't think Jeff's are hand bent over the thighs of virgins in a shack in Colorado {stopped now}

There's no enforceable IP on these bars as far as I can see. A Patent Applied For that long ago means it may be a great idea but it's not original enough to protect. 'Passing off', maybe - but I doubt it here. The bars are the same as Alpkit and Ribble had/have. They're made by Leadtec, if anyone else wants to source them - http://www.leadtec.com.tw/en/products/? ... il&aid=316

I have a huge amount of admiration for Jeff as a bike designer. As a businessman maybe he's left a door open though, his distribution adds costs and doesn't help vs the competition that can (or has) come about from the success of his products. His bikes aren't bad VFM at all imo but the bars are pricey.
For some the Jones bars are a brilliant but spendy option. How many people will try these now that the price is a bit more realistic then become interested in his bikes? I got some freebie Titec H-bars a long time ago and now I have 2 of Jeff's bikes What can't be copied so easily is the way his bikes and bars all work so well together.

On the Profit point, the originals are a bit mental. I value the loops enough to pay for the fair S/H rate, largely as I trust them enough S/H. Bought all my Ti H-bars S/H also (and a new set of Ti loops, just because .. f-it why not, I like them and I like his business.)

Whilst we are having a Jones love in, anyone know why the cheap complete Jones bikes aren't being imported into the UK? Look really good and very price competitive with equivalent Surlys.

wriggles wrote:Whilst we are having a Jones love in, anyone know why the cheap complete Jones bikes aren't being imported into the UK? Look really good and very price competitive with equivalent Surlys.

I think there is mention of them on Biff's page and that he's looking into it. iirc imports of bike parts are subject to fewer taxes/duties than complete bikes. Once exported to the Uk perhaps the price isn't so competitive anymore.

johnnystorm wrote:I think there is mention of them on Biff's page and that he's looking into it. iirc imports of bike parts are subject to fewer taxes/duties than complete bikes. Once exported to the Uk perhaps the price isn't so competitive anymore.

True but the end price will be relative to any other complete bike imported in the same way ie based on source cost. If Jeff direct shipped a container of them from Asia to UK they could be competitive. If he has them over to the US first they'll be more expensive, that time and shipping adds up.

jameso wrote:

johnnystorm wrote:I think there is mention of them on Biff's page and that he's looking into it. iirc imports of bike parts are subject to fewer taxes/duties than complete bikes. Once exported to the Uk perhaps the price isn't so competitive anymore.

True but the end price will be relative to any other complete bike imported in the same way ie based on source cost. If Jeff direct shipped a container of them from Asia to UK they could be competitive. If he has them over to the US first they'll be more expensive, that time and shipping adds up.

I just assumed that he doesn't do the volume to make a Euro/UK direct export so they're being imported/exported twice as you say. Shame.

He probably doesn't now, but get the price down and fill a 20ft container with bar, bikes and frames and direct ship.. you'd expect to sell more based on lowered cost. Sell some items direct perhaps. The demand and position in the market is there. As it is now, UK bar volumes just went down 60pc or more... and it was inevitable. The route to market is as important as the product or brand credibility.

As James has hinted, it's all about import duty. When I worked for PX they had a satellite company in Portland, Oregon that "imported" pre-built bikes, mainly Lurchers, from Taiwan then transferred them to the UK. This avoided import duty on full bikes even thought the actual bikes never saw US soil. The rest of the range were built up from components in the UK as components were imported at lower duty rates. They also had a bonded tax free warehouse that was used for high value items such as frames, the dubious use of which I won't go into. So you can add avoiding tax to the list of reasons not to buy a PX/On One.

jameso wrote:He probably doesn't now, but get the price down and fill a 20ft container with bar, bikes and frames and direct ship.. you'd expect to sell more based on lowered cost. Sell some items direct perhaps. The demand and position in the market is there. As it is now, UK bar volumes just went down 60pc or more... and it was inevitable. The route to market is as important as the product or brand credibility.

This. In the US a Jones is priced at a similar level as a Krampus, but once you get the Jones frameset over here you're into a completely different price point. This is Jones at an accessible level.

That makes sense about the budget Jones. Shame though as it looks a proper utility bike and a not ridiculous price. I suppose once the Brexpocalypse happens there wont be a way to ship container loads at a european level so even less likely hood of seeing it in the UK.

PB, bringing in bikes as build kits and frames to assemble later lowers the duty compared to full bike import, if some other terms are met, that's open to any importer. As is bonded warehouse status for VAT management. I think fiddling either for long would be difficult... and risky. Tax avoidance is a bit different to logistics that minimise unnecessary tax? (And are replaced by needing labour to build bikes etc)

No deal brexit is likely to mean no more anti dumping duty from China ... so options change and some will take advantage of that.

Bearbonesnorm wrote:

Sycamore Stu???

Not my pic Gairy but looking at it, I'd say possibly Yew?

I've almost zero experience of Yew.

I imagine you've a bit more given your 'other hobby'

PX are really going for it with the bikepacking copies: https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/BAPODTFB/ ... e-and-ties
More on the site too.

they always will as they are in business so they will milk/exploit/provide/service [ deete as per own view] the market.

Have to say that is a damn fine price for what they are offering which also serves to highlight how much niche stuff costs - i guess small supply and distribution lines adds to the cost v the costco/lidl of bikes

Lazarus wrote:Have to say that is a damn fine price for what they are offering which also serves to highlight how much niche stuff costs - i guess small supply and distribution lines adds to the cost v the costco/lidl of bikes

It does. And in defence of the niche, up to a point - the time, costs and gamble of setting up as a small brand making an unproven product then establishing it and creating demand, vs a factory that specialises in this kind of thing seeing the demand that the small company created and simply adding it as another line in the list. Easy to see how they can do it at a fraction of the price. In this case, easier still as the original loops aren't cheap.