how much???!!!

[adjustablewench]

Would people seriously pay this for a couple of days guided bikepacking - Chew would have made a killing on the wrt

http://www.carbon-monkey.co.uk/wp/index ... kepacking/

I can feel a new career coming on . . . .

[ScotRoutes]

We've been through this before.

If you don't have the experience, fancy come company, want to try out some kit and learn some skills then £145 is a bargain.

If you don't fall into the above categories then just DIY

[Yorlin]

I still think people here should team up and take groups out! You could charge half that amount and still make a mint!

[ScotRoutes]

Remember to include the cost of public liability insurance, the costs of the leadership, outdoor and first aid courses plus, of course, your pay.

[Blackhound]

It is a lot for us but tbf that cost does include hiring / use of most camping kit excluding sleeping bag. Nice as a try out or a one off adventure weekend for some people.

[Ian]

I wonder how long it'll be before they see the referral from the link in this post in their web stats

--

FWIW, I think if they are supplying all the kit it isn't too bad value. Cost of races is going up and up these days (isn't Polaris £120 now?), and for those with less of a competitive edge but still looking for a good adventure, this is a viable option.

[benp1]

It seems a lot for people that like it already

But if you factor in all the costs in putting it together, plus the fact its their full time job so they need to earn from it, then it seems reasonable. How much would a guide cost to hire for a day?

Personally its not for me, but its good for people who've never done it before

[Cheeky Monkey]

I wouldn't but I can imagine some would.

IMO it's not as stupidly expensive as I imagine some people might charge.

HYOH

[AlasdairMc]

This seems a lot like an 'experience' provider instead of an actual way into bikepacking. I don't think that any biker who wants to do some bikepacking will go in completely blind - they'll just go out for a night with a sleeping bag (which you need already) and some gear stuffed into a rucksack. Bikepacking seems to be a progression from other types of biking, so perhaps you're sick of day rides and have done some road touring so want to combine the two.

The course there seems to be offered to those who have not necessarily made the progression from day rides to bigger rides - seems a lot like mountain guiding. I could spend a few seasons doing my apprenticeship in the Scottish mountains on easy snow and ice routes before doing some Alpine summits, or I could pay someone for their experience and go straight in.

The term 'adventure facilitiation' makes me laugh though - the fact there is facilitation involved kind of takes away the adventure...

[Bearbonesnorm]

Given what goes on behind the scenes I don't think the price is over the top ... although £85 will get you a very similar thing in glorious mid-Wales : http://forestfreeride.co.uk/pages/guiding+trips.html

I find that roughly 50% of people just want the experience and the other 50% actually want something which is much more of a learning experience ... I consider either to be completely justified and as valid as each other, it's all good.

[carbon-monkey]

I generally choose to not get drawn into these conversations, but as this one genuinely seems to have had some good arguments from both sides I'm more interested in getting involved and hearing a little more about both points of view. This is neither a whinge nor a retaliation - it's my point of view and i'm genuinely interested in yours.

Firstly, that course was one I had been asked to put on by one client, I couldn't afford to run it one to one, so advertised it in the hope of getting a second (making it a bit more financially viable for me), I got a booking, that pulled out at the last minute and so I ended up running the course 1:1 for the weekend, earning £145, less £10 campsite fees, fuel to the peaks and back and my own food for the weekend.

I now run these courses closer to home, for £95pp, and would be interested to hear if that is still viewed as 'too much' because I'm still getting messed about by people changing their mind last minute and wonder if these courses are actually of any real interest to people?

The mountain biking industry is a difficult one to make any money in, unless you're selling kit, but I have stuck at it for 15 years because I see the benefit clients gain when they do come on a course and I believe that one day riders will start to see the benefit of service over product - but more than that I love riding my bike and encouraging others to ride their bikes, in new places and in new ways. It's a long and expensive task becoming a qualified mountain bike instructor / guide. Once you have the relevant skills and experience the training and assessment courses, first aid certification, insurance and continue professional development rack up to a hefty bill (my estimate over the last 15years is that I've spent well in excess of £4,000 on professional MTB qualifications and development), and the risks are high, if I lead you down a trail that you then have a crash on, you could (rightly or wrongly) decide to sue, which could cost me everything - one court case (justified or not) will put your insurance costs up so much you'll never be able to afford to work again. The flip side is that when you get it right you can boost someones skills set in one day (or in this case two) further than they will do by 'just riding' for a couple of years, and of course if you manage to fill courses then you can earn a living from riding your bike!

In terms of the 'intro to bikepacking' courses that I offer, they include the use of over £3,000 worth of kit and those folk who have done my courses have always told me later that I saved them money by helping them decide on the right kit to buy first time and not making a poor choice that they then had to replace.

So with my current skills courses costing £40 half day, £65 full day and £95 weekend - do folk here still regard this as too expensive, or is it simply a case that no matter what the price the services that us professional mountainbike instructors offer are just not valued or of interest to the general biking public?

Open to all genuine responses, less so to any lurking trolls ;p

Tom

[Bearbonesnorm]

I've seen a massive shift in peoples attitudes over the years. While coaching has become more widely accepted and readily available (when I started you could pretty much list all the UK's coaches on the fingers of one hand), information has largely become de-valued ... many people assume that what you're going to show / teach / coach them can be found for free on the internet and to a degree it can, however the really, really important details can't.

I don't think your prices are anything extraordinary and when you consider what people will happily p1ss up a wall, they look like good value. However, I think until there's a change in the way people value knowledge rather than 'things' we'll always be skint

I think Wenchies origional post needs to be taken in the context that it was written by someone with bikepacking experience. Someone whose already out there and to a large degree, is involved in / with the bikepacking community. When you're used to bikepacking costing you nothing (apart from the obvious) or maybe twenty quid for the WRT or similar, the thought of paying someone to take you out seems quite alien. I'm sure if you questioned non-bikepackers about the price of your trips, you'd get quite a different response than you would here ... anyway, I'll shut up before I start another paragraph.

[Cheeky Monkey]

What Stu said, he knows better than me.

Would I pay you for the "experience" - no, because from years of camping since I was a kid I don't see the need / value. It's not that there aren't things I couldn't learn but I don't think / am not inclined to pay money for them, at the mo'. As Stu says, I'm probably not your target / likely market though.

Are your fees too high - probably not - value is a very subjective thing, Those less familiar / confident / wanting to be lead by the hand through it will probably find them good value.

I do wonder about the section of people who want everything laid out for them and to be intimately led through it. It's like the "what bike for bike packing" question. Ideal customers for you, a bit baffling to me. Hey ho, I may just be lucky to have come from a family / school / mates / life background where we enjoyed the outdoors and just did stuff with people teaching or gaining experience on an ad hoc basis.

HYOH

[whitestone]

Many years ago when I was starting out alpine climbing (with a mate who had over a dozen seasons and several good 'ticks' to his name) I wondered why anyone would hire a guide to be dragged up what to me looked to be pretty plain, technically easy routes*. My mate countered with the argument that, subject to good weather and conditions, you were more likely to get a route done and didn't have to worry about your mate freaking out at the size of the mountains, the crevasses, etc. So someone heading over from the States or wherever was getting a guarantee of doing some climbing.

When you see how many days there are available to guide in the mountains then the cost isn't that great. Of course many guides are also ski instructors so they can get work during the winter but it's certainly not a guaranteed five days a week, 52 weeks a year vocation.

Biking wise, I've taken an MTB skills course (Great Rock, AKA Ed Oxley) and I found it useful. Sure you aren't going to become a technical wizard after just one day's tuition, what you actually get is a set of pointers that you take away and practice as well as a bit of "You are doing that wrong". A bit like physio: it's not the hour spent being bent, twisted and stretched on the bench that is useful but the list of exercises to do each day before your next torture session.

As for fees: well if they are too high then no-one is going to take up the offer. As carbon_monkey says, there's a lot more behind the figure you see than just profit.

*If you look at the list of courses offered by say the Compagnie des Guides de Chamonix you'll see what I mean

[PaulB]

Hi,
I think that's under priced personally for what you are offering. I coach/ instruct/ guide - mountaineering/canoeing and mtb and am based in the Peak but work all over the northern hemisphere. People will pay for a quality product and service, you can sell it cheap and lots of work, or more expensive and do less work, may be a slightly better margin but with folk that want to be take something away and learn from the experience. We get lots of repeat bookings so hope that this means we do a good job. Its great to see people develop and being able to share your passion. You probably won't make a huge amount of money but you could be comfortable.

[slarge]

I won a 3 day supported road ride last year to the start of the TDF. The price was £600!

I thought it was extortionate, but there were 70 people on the ride, and it did include hotels, Halfords support crew, lunches, backup vans and signed routes - would I pay that ( not a chance) but there were 68 keen roadies who did!