BP.net x-post, interesting story and pros in BP racing

[jameso]

Reading about the cancelled La Munga on BP.net and they were discussing pros with the grit to cut it in bikepack/ultra-racing. There's a link to this chap on the Garmin and now Orica-Green Edge team who I wasn't aware of -

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/sport ... d=all&_r=0

Class .. what a great story. I struggle to feel that excited about pro road racing generally but there's always a few riders that interest me. In the TDF, Voight, Ten Dam, Hoogerland, Voeckler, the guys that tough it out when many would retire or drop back. The ones that embarrass Cipollini's climb-off on the first hill approach.

Interesting to see someone like Jeremiah Bishop talking about La Munga too. The topic of how much £££ it takes to get those guys into a longer self-supported race (La Munga may not be exactly that, but it could have been a start) aside, it's exciting that some of these pro riders could end up on something like the CTR or TD start line.

How do we think they'd get on?

[Joshvegas]

I think any tour completer probably has the mental and physical capacity to suffer the riding. Its the off bike bit that would sieve them out I reckon.

[Blackhound]

Touring the TD last year we stopped in Rob Leipheimer's shop for a bit of work. I asked Rob if Levi would ever consider the TD (he started out on mtb) and he said something non committal about having a break and considering things. It was not an outright never in a million years comment. I did add that although I know some people would not like to see an ex pro(with doping conviction) in the race I did say I would like to see how he would do.

[Ian]

I've been pondering this for a couple of days. I enjoyed the story about Svein Tuft, but his transition is from two-wheeled tramp to pro, not the other way around.

I feel sometimes that the niches that emerge in the cycling world are there because of a desire of those participating in cycling in general to move away from the "mainsteam". In so doing, a few have the privilege to rise to the top of their niche. Had they have remained in the "mainstream", they would not be noticed. The community that forms around that niche collectively pushes distances or difficulty (remoteness/ duration) beyond what the mainstream does, increasing its degree of separation from the mainstream, but also increasing its profile and appeal. This is where I see bikepacking is at currently.

But the niches get bigger, and attract the interests of more people until you reach a critical point where pro's say, "hey, that looks cool, I'll give that a go". There is no appreciation that we were all actually quite happy as a bunch of "amateurs" with day jobs, families, and so on happy in our niche that was distinctly separate from the pro environment. As such, if a bunch of pro's line up at the TD next year, or the Bear Bones 200 for that matter, I think the niche looses some appeal with those that were "there at the beginning".

Anyway, that's my view. Probably sounds a bit elitist, but I didn't set out on that basis
Your views may differ

[jameso]

Interesting angle Ian, an element of fish and pond sizes maybe (meant as an example not a dismissive point!). I think that at the real limits of what you can cope with wattage and FTPs mean less compared to what they mean over a 2hr - 1 day race. We become more evenly matched once fatigue has taken effect and tactics count for a lot. That's the interesting bit in all this. But find an XC pro with stage-race experience and the right mentality and they'd set records I'm sure. If Jure Robic was around to have entered one of the big course races? I think he'd have laid waste to a few records. (Feel like those old guys in the barber shop talking about Ali and Foreman here haha)

Kevin's point on doping is key though, any hint of having trained full time while on the juice and it's just not a fair comparison, the gains at peak performance may wear off relatively fast but the base strength I expect would remain for a long time. Levi Leipheimer's card is marked there, I'm not sure if anyone in that position could claim a course record fairly but if he's clean and racing in a good style, best of luck to him.

if a bunch of pro's line up at the TD next year, or the Bear Bones 200 for that matter, I think the niche looses some appeal with those that were "there at the beginning".

For me it'd add something. Not to the niche appeal, but to what the race is for those involved. Stepping up to a start line alongside Mike Hall and Craig Stappler was an honour for me, I'm just not used to that experience. To line up on a fair basis alongside Schurter or Sagan would be incredible, how often do we get any chance to ride alongside guys like that? Imagine finishing when one of them didn't? I think the publicity that would go alongside them entering would be potentially negative but it'll go that way eventually, it's inevitable. How long will the world's best pros be able to hear 'Yeah, but I heard that race is the hardest in the world, why haven't you raced it yet?' before one of them cracks? : )

[mountainbaker]

Don't think you're elitist in that view Ian, I think you're pretty much just saying it how it is! Being part of a small niche within cycling or sport generally is a tricky thing.

I played bike polo in London for 5 years, it started really small, unknown, and most people weren't uninterested. I loved it when it was relatively small, and I did well with my team, 2nd in UK 4th in EU. Some people felt it had to grow. They had different reasons and agendas. Some just wanted more players to make the game more interesting, others wanted more money, sponsorship, or power within the community. There was a lot of head banging and infighting, of course. Ultimately, the people that played, just wanted to play, they didn't want to read the ever expanding rulesets, or to have referees restricting their plays. At tournaments sure, but not for the laymen, playing on a Sunday afternoon. My biggest fear for the sport was always someone like Red Bull picking it up, because there are loads of injuries, accidents, so it makes good viewing in their books (videos like this don't help http://vimeo.com/92906085). Don't think that's happened yet to any major extent, but it's something to be aware of.

Basically, where I draw similarity between bike polo and bikepacking is the grassroots, no bullshit approach. As soon as it starts getting regulated, recognised by British Cycling, or the UCI, it's doomed to become ultra-competitive and a sponsorship commodity, which kills it for us normal people.

What I'd draw from my own experience is to not let large cycling bodies get their claws into the well known events, and keep it open-source.

I know all that ^ isn't about pros entering bikepacking events, but when pros do start doing so, all the above will happen. They have very large and powerful marketing bandwagons.

[jameso]

I agree with what you're getting at there MB, I think it's just how things develop though, human nature. The TD is already well along on that path, Chris Bennet's afterword in the Cordillera v6 is a real sign of the times I think ( http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/index. ... ic=10963.0 )
Personally if it all gets 'bigger' I don't really care as long as rule #1 is abided by, I'll still do it for as long as I'm into it. I love long day rides on a road bike but I don't enter sportives, ie the commercialised side of it all has no bearing on what I do so I don't worry about who gets involved, sponsors it, etc. I think more ethics debates will crop up if BP grows to have entry fees or prizes but tbh that's for each individual involved to resolve with themselves.
Stu's always said it's too uncomfortable and lacking in any glamour to be popularised anyway, totally right. And self-supported over long distances makes televising etc very tricky. But back to The Munga, I'd love to watch a go-pro and heli-camera filmed race like that and there would be a few riders I'd be cheering on with a beer in hand, just like the great stages of the TDF. It wouldn't change anything about my weekend escapism trips or my BP holiday plans.

[mountainbaker]

I hadn't read that afterword before, he makes some good points for sure. I must get the latest Cordillera actually, thanks for the reminder!

I do long road rides too, and have never entered an Audax, or any sportive. Like you, I'm just not into the commercial side of it. If I go out to ride, I want it to be unsupported, no food/water stops, or waymarking. Not sure why I feel that way, but I am pretty fiercely independent, so maybe that's it.

[Richpips]

How do we think they'd get on?

If a pro was focussed on the race I reckon they'd lay waste to the rest of the field. A Pro wouldn't be allowed to ride though, as there is no money in it for a sponsor, and they wouldn't chance doing a BP race in their jollies for fear of injury.

As to the ethics and rules. I'm with rule #1. Other than that, I have a great admiration for the fast folk, scratching someone for being slow blows goats though.

[SRS]

I think that it's important to recognise the distinction between racing and events, such as the aforementioned sportives etc. There are road and crit races every week all over the country ( and no doubt cx and xc) that are run under BC rules (and points system). They are usually very competitive - the standard is high - and they are usually marshalled by volunteers and prize money is typically minimal (at best). These are races but they are not examples of rampant commercialism.